“Note: Just to let you it is not that we don’t believe in things like that, it is just misleading when you talk about it being billions of years old, when we all know that the world is only about 6,000 years old. So why would I pay so that you can misslead my children, your world is just a revolving(?), ours has a start and an end. God created the world. He created animals and man all in the same week. It was also Adam who named all the animals, they will do the essay ‘Rock and Minerals’ but it might not be 5 pages long, and about billions of years, it will be according to the Bible.”
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Why would anyone believe an omniscient being would posses conscious thought?¿?
I like pie.
HAHAHAHAHA! awesome.. All of it…
If this really is a fail, it is nowhere near funny.
the bible is a collection of fairy tales for paranoid fools
how very lovely to persecute ones believes with a big fail on top of the paper, how very sad to do this to other people, how about this, you fail miserably at loving man, you fail
Prophetlady, I think you are missing the point, its not a fail because of her beliefs. Read it again
I don’t think you know what persecution is.
Aw, come on guys. The fact is that most christians don’t believe in this young earth crap. It’s just that the news in America won’t put on any of them that don’t. And then they put on these heated debates between the most ignorant christians and the most insulting atheists, and the whole thing is designed to divide people as much as possible, and create an “us versus them” mentality. That way we’re all fighting about stuff like gun control, gay rights, etc. And the whole time Bush is staging a war that’s just a way to give money to all of his friends, and four years later we’re arguing about the same stupid crap and Obama just gives 800 billion dollars to the banks. We’re all getting a good rogering, and we need to deal with these pirates and get the economy in order. THEN we can argue the finer points of society.
Polls show that about half of all American christians are Young Earth creationists. These idiots are not a tiny minority, and their political clout is extensive.
This idea that we can only tackle one major problem at a time is bullshit, and just an attempt at distracting from things you find uncomfortable.
Don’t you think that’s the problem though? If we can’t convince people to bother to learn biology in class, how can we encourage them to question their political leaders, culture, and social systems and think critically outside of the classroom? They refuse to do it when the books are sitting right there in front of them!
I have never read a comment from a pro-creationist/intelligent design/”teach the controversy” that accurately explained what the theory of evolution is.
Seriously, these are the same people who are claiming that Obama is trying to kill old people with death panels. These things are related.
Gessa
Sorry, I was actually trying to make a comment on the destructiveness of the “bi-partisanship/team sports” mentality that seems to be very prevalent in politics these days. I guess it didn’t come off the way I intended it.
Yea, those death panels are crazy eh? I’m from Canada, and I just found out that in Canada we have to enter a lottery to see a doctor, and that “they” are going to kill my grandmother.
I’ve never noticed this lottery thing, I just make an appointment and go to the doctor, guess I’ve just been really lucky. Sucks about my grandma though.
But on a serious note, yea dude, I can’t believe the campaign of misinformation that goes on. I’ve been trying to find some good creationist websites to see what they’re getting at but it’s always just things like “I know my watch was designed by someone, because it’s complicated and it works, humans are complicated and they work, therefore they had a designer.”
Apparently this brilliant line of reasoning invalidates like, eight distinct branches of science.
I think this is a fail because of the parent’s narrowness of mind. You don’t believe in evolution? Fine! The Earth is 6000 years old? Fine! But don’t keep your child from the outside world because other people don’t share your beliefs! And for Christ’s sake (and I say that very respectfully towards Christ), stop being angry at everyone who doesn’t believe the same things you do! They sin? So do you! They’ll end up in hell? How is that your business? Pray for them but stop telling them they’re doomed! Chances are they don’t care!
You can think you’re right but you CAN’T be 100% sure (no one can). I happen to believe in evolution because of data that science has made available for us to study. If I’m wrong I’ll go to hell with the rest of ‘em! So what’s it to anyone? I’ll shut up and enjoy it! You’ll go to heaven because you believed the right thing. Good for you!
The kid’s gonna be unpopular, his parents are arrogant a$$holes (“everybody knows the world is 6000 years old”… pleeeeeease!) and they are free to teach their kid whatever they feel like at home. Children are entitled to the same education whatever their religion is. That way, when they’re older, they get to CHOOSE and make enlightened choices.
Fundamentalism (religious or not) is dangerous, and not just in the Middle East.
Pray for my soul all you want; I’ll pray for that kid’s and anyone that was brought up in that kind of environment.
America, you are a first world country with a large minority of extremely dangerous people. Completely deluded and prey to charlatans and mountebanks. Most of your politicians are corrupt to the core and manipulate these drones with votes to maintain policies that are against the interests of almost everyone. Which is the most dangerous nation in the world right now ?
The most heavily armed nation ever, with a military budget almost equal to the total of every other country. What you all so frightened of? By far the biggest danger most Americans are ever going to face is from their fellow Americans. Can’t you see just how scary you are to rational people. Grow up. To have a super power in the hands (despite a recent temporary setback) of deluded simpletons beholden to primitive backward reality denying fools is a recipe for global disaster.
Come on think about it. Now do something about it before the entire world turns on you, like we did on Japan and Germany a bit back, and for not dissimilar reasons.
Trust me, dude, it’s scary to we rational Americans, too. Every time I see a Conservative Christian in the media I do a big old facepalm.
Holy crap, that is a lot of posts.
Yea, controversy! But seriously, anyone who actually wanted to debate something wouldn’t do it on the comment section of FailBlog… But, hey, to each their own
So the universe was created out of nothing is unacceptable to you, so you believe in God. But some being was around when there was literally nothing is acceptable? Or if God was created wouldn’t he also have to come into existance out of nothing, but thats ok because he is God and not the universe?
I am sure there were people 5000 years ago who would swear up and down that Zeus existed and things happened because Zeus wanted them too. Or someone’s crops failed and their family died because Demeter willed it too. Their beliefs eventually died and I am sure current religion will fall eventually too. Its just current religion is better at brainwashing naive people into their way of thinking and have the money to support them.
AND ANOTHER THING.
what kind of adult capable of raising a child structures sentences like that?
GRAMMAR GRAMMAR GRAMMAR.
I always like to see the bright side of things.
Surely fundies are getting stronger in the US. But, thanks to their hate of science, the US is also loosing its leadership in science and tech.
So no problem. If and when the US will be a theocracy, it will also be at the scientific and technical low level of other theocracies, that is sub-zero. And so it will not be a menace for the rest of the world…
Wow….. that is a total fail. Make the rest of us Christians look like idiots why don’t ya??
Ahh, Young Earth Creationists…. Putting the “mental” in fundamentalist for absolutely no more than 6,000 years.
Dendrochronology – we can see the age of the Earth is > 6000 years using TREE RINGS.
Those who disagree have only their opinion and no evidence to refute an old Earth.
Those who believe in a young Earth should really read some science once and awhile instead of only their holy book.
There is also geomagnetic reversal evidence on the ocean floor. Good luck refuting that one.
Its stuff like this letter that make me wonder what the world would be like if we made it against the law to teach your children your religion until they were of an age where they can make their own rational decision to join it or not. I bet religion would not last long in such an environment.
Beerdude, that’s why you’ve got to indoctrinate the kids early, before they fully learn to think for themselves. Get their brains addled with God while they’re young, and they’re much less likely to be able to throw off the religious brainwashing later on. I was one of the lucky ones who did.
the oldest living tree was dated around 4500 years old 50 years ago. up to 5 rings can grow per year depending on the conditions. And about geomagnetic reversal, we do not know if the rate of shift in polarity remains constant as this has not been monitored for long enough
There’s more to dendrochronology than just looking at the rings of a single tree. People have been using wood for longer than we’ve had civilisation, and dead wood does not lose its rings.
The oldest living tree is 9550 years old and grows in Sweden. Check the first result in google.
To Brock
80,000 to 100,000 is more accurate.
This is why I’m Atheist.
Unfortunately for me, I went to this school.
living being exists for only one thing : stay alive, keep cloning your cells, reproduce, stay alive, clone again.
you guessed right: SEX
seriously!
As close to clone as you can
for now.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN FAIL!?!?!?!? THAT IS AN EPIC WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not to mention: if a scientist gives a name to a newly discovered species today, he somehow magically ends up giving it exactly the name Adam gave it. PLUS, Adam spoke english, despite the fact that all his descendants then spoke some ancient language.
There are two types of Christians.
Those who believe the Bible is absolute fact, and end up looking dumb, like the one here; and those who continually give up more and more ground to scientific fact in order to avoid looking stupid.
Science is eroding the validity of the Bible slowly but surely.
read my previous comments . . . creation has as much if not more scientific viability as evolution
It does not. Spend an afternoon browsing talkorigins.org (and specifically their index to creationist claims), and you’ll see that it’s all bullshit.
good job. you just stereotyped Christians. & quite failingly, may i add.
Only in America and Australia is this true. Christians in the rest of the world have a long tradition of accepting science and find no conflict between science and religion. There are Christians in the UK who have never heard of creationism and are astounded when they first come across the idea.
It makes laugh when religion states god created earth, the universe and all that and evolution never occured. What does occur to me is how did god exist in the first place then???????
God is infinite, he always was and always will be. also, where did the first singularity come from?
So what or who created god?
If you’re going to say God doesn’t need a first cause, why maintain the universe does? It’s far more parsimonious to say the universe is uncaused than to posit a whole god.
To Brock,
prove that there is a god and second that he is infinite.
how did we just rise up from pond scum? where did the POND SCUM come from?
these questions are unanswerable.
Actually hop there are many very good theories to show this in fact that same ‘pond scum’ has been created in many labs. They take the gasses that were most likely around when the earth was forming, and run a series of tests adding an energy source ( sunlight, sparks to act as lightening etc etc). Within a matter of weeks simple life forms amazingly begin to emerge. I think, although i’m not certain, that the prevailing and most accurate theory is based upon replicators which are now known as cells. Or at least they now reside within cells. It’s actually very interesting if you bother to learn about it instead of pretending there are no answers
ah.
“theories.” c:
so.
where did the earth form from, again?
So your just going to completely ignore the interesting stuff i just said because the word ‘theory’ was there? You have no interest in learning hop. You’ll spend your life ignoring facts that don’t fit in with your perception and for that you’ll forever remain ignorant whilst the people around you grow up, become more intelligent, and eventually smile at you out of pity.
who said i ignored it?
i’m aware of these kinds of experiments. that’s awesome. but, let’s keep in mind, they’re MAN-conditioned.
“theory” is the keyword here.
it would be a little more impressive if the existence of the certain gases floating about while the world was randomly forming could actually be proved. also, it would be nice to know where exactly an energy source originated from. poof. it’s called guessing. if any SOLID evidence supporting evolution popped up, now THAT would be interesting. and i’m not denying that there’s evidence – there is. but not nearly enough. no matter where you look, there will always be flaws in the system, and there will always be people around to point them out. hey, you know what else would be interesting? if God out and revealed himself to us. but until someone utterly proves the theory of evolution, or until Jesus comes back, no one is going to know for sure. still, we pick sides.
and now you’re hissing at me because you disagree with my “ignorant perception.” i’ve had that ignorant perception my whole life, and, just like you, nothing’s going to tear me from it. wanna call me a fool? sweet. i’ll grow from that.
congrats, though. you badmouthed your way into a minor case of superiority complex.
Nobody had to point out that you ignored i saw that you did in your post.
What do you mean they’re ‘man’ conditioned, every sense, every feeling, every belief, every experiment, text, and result your likely to ever encounter will be ‘man’ conditioned. Your pointing being human out as a flaw because you cannot find others.
Scientists judge from the evidence we have today, are you denying that the gasses existed or are you just trying to make the experiments look fallible by pointing out the obvious fact that they ‘might’ have been wrong. I suppose you believe there were gasses around yesterday? Why wouldn’t you believe it existed when the earth was forming? Especially when if you look at the math it makes absolute sense.
These flaws in the system you point out seem to only be to do with the human part of the experiments. If your trying to say that there is evidence against evolution your wrong. There isn’t anywhere. Please if you do find anything that proves evolution as false then let me know because that would be a MASSIVE discovery.
I see that nothings going to tear you from your beliefs, i guess growing up did it for me, but i’ve seen that that doesn’t quite cut it for most people. However, don’t be mistaken into thinking that your idiocy and lies will stand un-opposed because you’ve ‘always’ believed them. It doesn’t matter how long you’ve believed the rubbish you do, your still wrong.
i can tell you definitely feel grown up right now.
except for the fact that you’re still unable to at least live with the understanding that i believe something apart from your own mindset.
you’re not making me more open to accepting your way by bashing my way, you know.
we don’t know each other, yet we’re carrying on like this is going to make a difference in the opposite’s life.
i just realized the pointlessness.
thanks for your…uh…point of view. i’m still content.
toodles.
There is no making you feel more open to my point of view, this is why reputable scientists don’t debate creationists. It’s like a dentist debating with someone that believes the tooth fairy should be sorting everything out. I’m just enjoying reading your arguments, they help me sharpen my knives (metaphorically speakiiing).
To H0P3
“who said i ignored it?
i’m aware of these kinds of experiments. that’s awesome. but, let’s keep in mind, they’re MAN-conditioned.”
A that is convenient, isn”t it. If there is something that does not fit in your beliefs it is man-made. (And thus wrong??)
Nice scientific approach.
I would say: God is man-made and thus….does not count
“but until someone utterly proves the theory of evolution, or until Jesus comes back, no one is going to know for sure. still, we pick sides.”
The first has been proven, the second will never happen. Live with it.
…wait, what? Man-made conditions??? The Miller-Urey experiment just had a sample of water, methane, ammonia and hydrogen, had this evaporate, then struck it with electricity, had this condense to liquid and allowed this liquid to rest for a few weeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment
So, you take 4 easily available elements (methane and ammonia are common volcanic gasses), let these follow the normal water cycle (electricity can be replaced with the electrical charges in lightning clouds) and behold, you have some of the molecules required for life. ..how are these man-made conditions? Seriously? How?
“where did the earth form from, again?”
The process which forms stars and planets is well understood. Go study “accretion.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accretion_(astrophysics)
To H0P3
“these questions are unanswerable”
How do you come to that conclusion? Just coz you can”t answer them??
The rest of us have found and proven the answer….EVOLUTION.
Which seems to be something your god has overlooked so far.
Brock, at least science is working to discover answers to the questions you ask. Your religion does nothing but impede progress. When you say that creationism has more scientific validity your blatantly showing your idiocy, it has NO scientific validity. Non, non whatsoever, ever, anywhere. Post me one link that points to a valid scientific study that proves we were created and not the product of evolution.
believing in God impedes no one’s progress. perhaps it’s comforting for you to think that, but no.
Christians have been around forever, and that’s not stopped scientists from their work.
start respecting the beliefs of others. they exist – accept it.
a little thought before speaking never hurt anybody.
You actually believe that christians haven’t impeded science? The burnings? The trials, the homeopathy, the faith healings?
Your an idiot if you think christians have been around forever. I absolutely accept that beliefs exist, crazy people exist, retarded people exist, and clearly stupid people exist. That doesn’t mean their opinions on science are as valid as others who have actually gone out and learned about it.
Your right, a little thought never hurt, a little learning doesn’t either.
Remember Galileo, and a whole lot of people forced to swallow up their pride because their findings conflicted with the “cosmic” order.
This post just destroyed all the credibility you had left.
Christians have not been around forever. Jesus was born 2010 years ago. That’s how long they’ve been around.
Christianity has, especially in the past, always battled science when evidence was discovered that contradicted the bible. The flat earth, the geocentrical universe. All debunked, and the guys responsible for it paid duly for their intelligence.
Respecting the beliefs of others? The crusades anyone? The violent conversion of primitive tribes in Africa and America? The prosecution and the killing of Jews (this is actually almost a constant in history, it was even forbidden for them to have certain types of jobs.). Ofcourse that’s ok for christianity, cause they killed Jesus, who was… himself a Jew (makes sense).
What about all the bloodshed during the reformation, because some people had other beliefs about christianity? Was that respecting their beliefs?
Is all of history a dirty lie to you? Did nothing like this ever happen?
Are you utterly INSANE man? :s
yaaaay, it worked. : D
actually jesus was born around 30 AD. i believe thats the time line. he was born in AD not in bc thats what i remember.
To H0P3
Christians have been around forever Forever as in always??)
where did you get that from?
I tried this bylle, damn near impossible to get an answer that holds any weight.
I was on the Chesapeake Bay with my ecology class, and we were scraping to catch critters and learn about them.
Well, we caught this little fishy that had very small, fine scales. Our guide mentioned that they’d caught one with one of the other classes they took out there, from a private Christian school, and while she was explaining “They live among rocks, so evolved to have little scales so they wouldn’t snag–”
“We don’t believe in evolution.”
“…Oh.”
Gotta love it.
Michael Shermer, Genesis Revisited: A Scientific Creation Story
To 1984
Thank you for the fun
I hope the kid is smarter than the “god-fearing” parents and and doesnt follow in the silly footsteps
this is the reason we are yet to acheive enlightenment as a race.
That parent is so fossil. Or his frame of mind is.
Not to play the devil’s advocate, but the ‘scientific evidence and fact’ around evolution and all science was made up by people, too. Some of it has been proven, just like some Bible stuff has been proven, but someone had to decide to make up the idea of evolution, too.
Just for the record, I believe in evolution.
Of course someone came up and refined the idea of evolution but when that idea is confirmed it’s nothing short of ignorance to look the other way. Someone came up with the idea of toasters, hearing one go pop then believing the tooth fairy must have cooked that bread for you is plain stupid.
The idea is *not* totally confirmed, is the thing. And to the strong, strong Christians out there, creations is already “confirmed” just by God saying so. In a way, our idea of evolution is confirmed just because a bunch of scientists said it was so. Have you ever carbon-dated a fossil yourself? For all you know, scientists could have made it all up, just like Christians/other religions could have made up all of creation, “could” being the operative word.
Creationists find the Bible undeniable evidence that creation is real, just as you find all the fossils and everything undeniable evidence of evolution.
Creationists would believe it ignorant to even consider evolution when God so clearly states that creation is real. It all comes down to what you believe is a valid source, and that’s why this debate will never be settled.
“The idea is *not* totally confirmed, is the thing.”
Yes it is. See ERVs and the fused chromosome #2. That is difinitive proof of the evolution of humans from apes. It’s scientifically verifiable, the Bible is not, and science disproves the core of it by disproving genesis (which we know didn’t happen thanks to genetic markers).
If Genesis didn’t happen, there’s no original sin. If there’s no original sin, there’s no need for Jesus. If you don’t have Jesus, there is no Christianity.
There’s a HUGE difference between what you think and what you can prove. Creationists have nothing. I won’t say scientists have everything, they definitely don’t otherwise science would stop, but they do have enough to be able to claim religion is a ridiculous idea, and thankfully we’ve progressed enough (at least it most of the world) to be able to say so without being murdered on the spot.
This isn’t a debate, and what you believe to be a valid source doesn’t prove you right, otherwise I could just say “I’m right because I say so and I’m a valid source!”.
It doesn’t work that way. One side has facts and the other doesn’t. That makes one side right and the other wrong. Period.
You do realize that your sources aren’t exactly non-biased either, right? Evolution has not been totally proven; I won’t even bother linking any source that says this because you’ll just say that it’s biased and not valid. Basically, anything that doesn’t say what YOU want it to say is obviously wrong and ignorant and stupid, etc.
Evolution has not been completely proven. Some parts have, and some parts haven’t. That’s why it’s the “theory” of evolution.
Also, you missed the point. To Creationists, that God said it IS a fact, just like to you, because scientists said it, it IS a fact. It depends on your point of view.
Could you please explain to me, how, exactly, this isn’t a debate?
Debate: talk or argue about something: to talk about something at length and in detail, especially as part of a formal exchange of opinion
It looks to me like this is an exchange of opinion (I know you think your side is fact, but obviously others don’t, so it’s still an opinion) and obviously it’s been talked about at length and in detail.
Just because you – and granted, many others, me included -believe strongly in one side doesn’t make that side necessarily right.
The problem in science is that unlike mathematics there isn’t 100% logical deduction through logical proofs. All there really is is inference from evidence. In this case it would be inference from genetics, fossil records as well as experimental evidence into fruit flys and other such fast reproducing organisms.
On the other side there is religious propaganda. There are no arguments put forward for creationism or intelligent design. All they say is ridicule the currently established theory without first understanding it. The best things they have said is that evolution couldn’t be true because it requires complexity (though they have never demonstrated this point to a significant degree of reliability), macro-evolution is a lie but micro-evolution occurs (which is implanting a genetic boundary which should be detectable at a specific point in time if enough tests were performed. One must ask why they wouldn’t attempt to prove the existence of this boundary and definitively put some mathematical quantification to there rhetoric. If ever they did this it would be revolutionary and would be instantly incorporated into biology). So tell me, which of these two arguments sounds more reasonable?
It’s similar to children learning calculus. They take a function f(x)=x^2. and they measure the derivative of the function by taking two points on the curve and drawing a line which crosses through both points. As they repeat this, each time moving the two points closer together, the first child notices “The value of our gradient of the line we are producing seems to converge to some definitive value.” The second child turns and says “No it only appears like it does. The gradient of our function is getting close but it will never be truly equal. There is a boundary that this process cannot overcome. Thereby the approximation is always wrong by some amount and cannot be trusted.”
In my mind claiming that minor changes which alter probability levels of survival over successive generations is not a significant contribution to the alteration of species is like claiming that consecutively evaluating the gradient given in the above method is not a sufficient method of approximating the true gradient of the function at a point on the curve.
“So tell me, which of these two arguments sounds more reasonable?”
That’s my entire point. Of course to most reasonable people evolution sounds far more reasonable, but to Creationists, it doesn’t because they have a different view as to what consitutes valid “evidence”. That’s all I was trying to say. I wasn’t making comments on whatever one I believe, or whatever one people should believe. I was simply trying to give people a different way to look at where Creationists are coming from.
It has become obvious that it is impossible for anyone to reply to a post without throwing in heated comments about whatever side they believe. I’ll repeat: I WAS NOT making a case, excuses, or belief about Creationism. I wasn’t saying Creationism should be recognized as a plausible theory. I wasn’t saying anything about it other than that, for them, that God said it makes it fact enough to be true.
Why is it none of you can understand that? FIA.
Agreed. Impossible for a level headed discussion. If you are not completely for one extreme side of the discussion then both sides crucify you. For pete’s sake, is there such a thing as middle ground these days?
I feel your pain.
Whoa there! That’s a lot of reading things into my statement that I didn’t mean! Let’s be fair now…
So I’m a middle ground prat… I not suggesting we ignore the crazies! That may not even be safe! I AM suggesting that we maintain civility at all costs.
That means engaging them with logic. Only.
Did it ever occur to you that most of them have never had a clear, logical case for evolution presented to them? Yes, that actually happens! Because they homeschool and isolate themselves from society a log (sociological fundamentalism), many of them “leave the faith” when they are exposed to outside influences. Or become middle grounders. Seen it first hand.
By taking the “middle ground” I by no means want to undermine the facts of science. Defend them at all costs! But with logic and reason, not angry rhetoric. Careful observation and analysis will reveal that angry rhetoric tends to only deepen conflict and rarely convinces anybody.
This is addressed at Miguel
You claim you think maintaining civility is a good idea. I disagree. The creationist crowd waste time, money and effort polluting people’s minds with half truths and blatant lies. Why should I be civil when faced with such a position. If someone walked up to you and claimed that he could survive after eating a live grenade would you maintain civility? The only response to such a statement is:
‘lol you’re a tard.’ and then go on to explain why they’re wrong.
Secondly you refer to engaging people with logic. logic is rarely used in disciplines like biology if in many sciences at all. Biology is mainly evidence based. There is no logical pathway for evolution. One may describe the theory as ‘logical’ but that usually doesn’t mean it consists of logic. Logic has more of a place in mathematics and some people recognise it to be mathematics.
“Did it ever occur to you that most of them have never had a clear, logical case for evolution presented to them?”
I know. However the best thing for ignorance is acceptance of ignorance. As I have mentioned above, and you have eluded to, it’s ignorances job to breed ignorance, another reason to dislike the people holding the position because like it or not. They are now infected with those same half truths and will themselves likely go on to spread them.
“many of them “leave the faith” when they are exposed to outside influences.”
Yes a few people do read other books than the bible. Whilst this is good it isn’t the only possible solution. I find that it would be more effective to stop treating there comments as if they have any merit to them. Ridicule is a powerful thing if used correctly. Im not saying don’t argue scientific evidence if YOU want to. But I want to laugh at these points because if you strip them down to there minimum they are laughable.
I mean just read Lalala’s previous posts and tell me how you would feel if you heard this nonsense again and again. Lalala has repeatedly used bad argument after bad argument and the argument has gone:
“evolution is JUST a theory” -> “well both sides are biased” -> “okey both sides arn’t biased but they just have a different standard of evidence” -> “I don’t want to talk about this anymore”
That is not a mother fracking debate. That is propaganda fighting. After these point have been ridiculed is she likely to make them again?
I just don’t consider it meaningful to argue inane pointless statements on the same level as meaningful questions.
We all understand you. It’s just that you aren’t saying anything more than
“Stupid people are stupid”
Would you like a pat on the back, a gold star or a certificate?
“I just don’t consider it meaningful to argue inane pointless statements on the same level as meaningful questions.” That should go on failblog as a post all its own. And what meaningful questions are you talking about? Creation v. evolution? According to you, that’s not a meaningful question at all, since everybody who believes the opposite of you is a “crazy”.
Please explain to me how, exactly, this isn’t a “mother fracking debate.” Just because YOU believe strongly in one side doesn’t make that side necessarily true (and I will repeat, once again in case you missed the first times, that I AGREE WITH YOU. You’re just ridiculously narrow-minded and intolerant of any other viewpoint than your own.)
How is saying that both sides are biased and that they have a different standard for evidence a bad argument? Explain to me how it’s not true. And then tell me when I said both sides weren’t biased.
Holy hell, I wasn’t even MAKING a “mother fracking” argument. I was TRYING to help all the ignorant idiots out there like you realize what the Creationists may have been thinking, since you’re too busy writing tedious, repetitive, little-thought out comments trashing every single person who doesn’t believe the exact same thing you do to look past your own narrow little viewpoint to even think about why they think the way they do. People like you are the reason this debate (because, like it or not, that’s what it is. Look up the definition) has become as heated as it is.
1) Obviously the questions I was referencing were serious scientific questions that people should be focusing on. For example if the creatards weren’t always fighting lawsuits against schools maybe it wouldn’t be so hard to put more detail on the more advanced sections of evolutionary theory.
Maybe a section on punctuated equilibrium or a basic page on genetic drift. But with ever paragraph being reworded and reworded its hard to incorporate new idea’s (which do have backing within science) into textbooks.
2) I find it fit to ridicule the creatards because anything else simply supports there propaganda mill. This isn’t a debate because in a debate you have TWO sides to an argument. And I have yet heard a single argument FOR creation. There are plenty of pseudo-arguments against evolution but we’re talking about creation right?
3) How can science be biased. Science is a process. Scientists can be biased but that is why the peer review process exists. Any possible biases are eliminated by the nature of a) science itself and b) peer review. Clearly creationists have biases but I just don’t see what bias science overall has. Please elaborate on this point if you could.
4) Again your argument comes down to nothing more than “stupid people are stupid.”. My response isn’t due to my ignorance, though I undoubtedly am, my response is due to the fact that your arguments are tautologies dressed in rhetoric.
Very well put. As for your ignorance sean, i think something that has to come into real intelligence is the acknowledgement that your ignorant in many respects, because we all are.
That doesn’t make sense though. You are saying to the creationists, God is the evidence they need to know they are right. Using God as the evidence that God exists doesn’t work.
This is a WIN! I wish more folks would have enough backbone to stand up to all the “scientific” propaganda.
What would we actually gain from making up all this “propaganda”?
no really.
Bout 2000 years of progressive technology
Yeah duh, but the idea that those people think we’re dedicating our lives making up all this stuff just to fool them into losing their fate really cracks me up.
You know what? Screw it. I’m gonna take credit for this lie, because it’s absolutely monumental, and whoever pulled this off is the most amazing person in the world. I’ve been organising a conspiracy to discredit god and creationism. I personally invented archaeology, climatology, chemistry, physics, molecular biology, genetics, geology, cosmology, astronomy, linguistics and anthropology. I managed to get the government in on all of this for at least a century and a half of funding these sciences. I’ve been faking tree rings, and placing fossils of all kinds in some heavy ass rock on every continent on the planet. I also created every virus that existed and place an appendix in every baby that’s ever been born. Look, I’m really sorry about the virus and appendix thing, it kind of got out of hand and I know a lot of people have been hurt. But I gotta come clean. I can’t keep up with this workload. Do you have any idea what my email inbox is like? Sorry guys, I’d love to keep the lie up but I just can’t do this anymore. You can all go back to being young earth creationists now. We gave it a good shot, but hey, at least we aren’t all going to hell anymore, right?
Good stuff. A well placed troll to bump this thread past the two thousand mark. Almost there!
To Michael
“This is a WIN! I wish more folks would have enough backbone to stand up to all the “scientific” propaganda.”
What did you win?? The “I ignore facts-lottery”??
The worst part of the fanatics argument is that the bible never specifies an age for the world at any time during the narative, these dates were ‘calculated’ by a fanatic based on the ages and family trees of biblical figures. (So they believe in something that the Bible doesn’t even say!)
YESSSS, 2,007!
let’s take it to 2,010.
that would be win.
My final word in this overly long set of comments: coexist
Pffft. What planet do YOU live on?
*squeeze*
I’m sorry, but I can’t reply since that was my last… Damnit!
Mwuaahahahahahaha.
My nefarious plan has succeeded.
groooovy.
This posting is ridiculous – yes, PLEASE – let’s look at the facts and realize that evolution and the billion year old world requires more faith than what the Bible teaches…it’s easier to believe because it doesn’t require you to think outside yourself…WOW! What a concept that there is a creator and that he made you! Oh My Goodness – you mean my own intellect and understanding goes beyond my own existence!!!
“let’s look at the facts and realize that evolution and the billion year old world requires more faith than what the Bible teaches…”
Yes, because multiple inter-confirming lines of evidence are much hard to swallow than the idea that a woman can give birth to a man through parthenogenesis.
Awesome! I knew I’d get a response but I’d hoped you’d at least reply to me. Parthenogenesis…really…that’s the best you got?!
All this death and mayhem for a bloke who in fairness, probably existed, though i have reservations about him being the some of a divine knob twiddler. It would help if your scripture wasn’t so damn inconsistent. I get it, they agree on the “big” facts. Like Jesus was descended from david, but the gospels cant decide if its 77 generations or 41. that a big difference. I am surprised they havnt brought up intelligent design though
IDiocy’s just another term for creationism methinks.
Short ambiguous statements – just another term for I have no idea what I’m talking about but I’ll say it anyway dammit!!
What was ambiguous about that? You not understanding something i say doesn’t mean that it’s in any way ambiguous. It makes perfect sense to anyone that DOES know what they’re talking about.
Great way to clarify yourself without giving any explanation at all except that you disagree…what do you disagree about…a virgin birth…I thought we were talking about the creation of existence…
I just clarified further for you before reading your last post, i thought you might need it and apparently i was right. Well, i do disagree with the virgin birth yes, for one thing that was a mistranslation of the messianic texts and it actually meant young woman not virgin. Biblical scholars have pointed that out many times. I didn’t even mention the virgin birth in the first place though. Are you trying to re-direct?
the capital ID stands for Intelligent Design, do you see? You see how that works? he then added iocy to make the word idiocy, that furthers the humour and contempt we both share for the “theories” we are disproving. He then further stated it was another word for another “theory” that is totally uncredited. Do you see how that works? and how its funny? or do you not understand. See the ID stands for intelligent design…….
Do you not know the difference between the a J and an I…my initials are JD (the initials of my first and middle name)…not ID…I’m sorry but you’re horribly misguided…you’d do well for yourself to pick of the Bible and read about what you presume to know so much about.
you really are dense. Read the post. I wasn’t referring to your initials and neither was he. INTELLIGENT DESIGN…initials I D….As for bibles, i read it plenty matey. Let me introduce you to the real ten commandments. allow me rant…Exodus 20:2-17.
You’ll see the familiar list of rules about having no other gods, honoring your parents, not killing
or coveting, and so on. At this point, though, Moses is just repeating to the people what God told
him on Mount Si’nai. These are not written down in any form.
Later, Moses goes back to the Mount, where God gives him two “tables of stone” with rules
written on them (Exodus 31:18). But when Moses comes down the mountain lugging his load, he
sees the people worshipping a statue of a calf, causing him to throw a tantrum and smash the
tablets on the ground (Exodus 32:19).
In neither of these cases does the Bible refer to “commandments.” In the first instance, they are
“words” which “God spake,” while the tablets contain “testimony.” It is only when Moses goes
back for new tablets that we see the phrase “ten commandments” (Exodus 34:28). In an
interesting turn of events, the commandments on these tablets are significantly different than the
ten rules Moses recited for the people, meaning that either Moses’ memory is faulty or God
changed his mind.
Thus, without further ado, we present to you the real “Ten Commandments” as handed down by
the LORD unto Moses (and plainly listed in Exodus 34:13-28). We eagerly await all the new
Decalogues, which will undoubtedly contain this correct version:
I. Thou shalt worship no other god.
II. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
III.. The feast of unleavened bread thou shalt keep
IV. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.
V. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of
ingathering at the year’s end.
VI. Thrice In the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord God.
VII. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
VIII. Neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
IX. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
X. Thou shalt not seethe a kid [ie, a young goat] in his mother’s milk.
hows that for you? or need i add that the devil is never refered to as lucifer so i have no notion of where the name comes from. he is only ever refered to as the morningstar.
your right brother…i’ll be wrong where I’m wrong..but it seems that you warped you vision of this world to represent your own perception…I would like to appeal to you outside of politics and ask that you approach your creator on his terms instead of your own…
‘Short ambiguous statements – just another term for I have no idea what I’m talking about but I’ll say it anyway dammit!!’
I have met my creators, my mother i adore, my father not so much. Allow me to quote epicurus to you, to make you fully understand how little god following i have in me.
“Is god willing to prevent evil, but unable? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God….” ~ Epicurus. Atheists, winning since 33 A.D
If god ever does reveal himself, ive got a 50/50 chance of getting the cuddly fuzzy god from the new testament in which case he will forgive me and understandingly approach me on my terms, me being a sceptic and all. if its the old testament guy, ill blame it on a woman, or a jew…he seems to fall for that all the time/.
Actually JAY DEE i have read the book you so fondly cling to and i know other people that have aswell, i’ve also read a massive amount of genesis. Reading these books doesn’t teach you anything, it does teach that the original christian faith was encouraged through fear as opposed to love but that’s about it. I haven’t however read the original messianic texts, but who has? Knowing more about your myths wouldn’t change anything either way. I assume you were arguing in favour of the virgin births? Well, why don’t you take your own advice, pick up a medical journal and learn about something you ‘presume to know so much about’.
Lol…I always love conflicting views…although I’ll still have to say that you have no idea what you’re talking about if you’ve never encountered your creator. He loves you and he wants to have a relationship with you.
Sounds like a priests chat up line to me…
Anyone can say anything my friend…there is only right or wrong – black and white – one day I’ll be be black and white and you’ll be the other – only future will tell.
That’s just another stupid sentence that makes no sense. Your trying to distract from your previous IDiocy (HAH) by showing more of it. Are you drunk?
what… If there are only two colors and you’re going to be both what the frack will he be.
Are you seriously suggesting you’re going to be multicolored and he’s going to be invisible?
One day I will have to chose either cake or death. I will have cake and death and you will have the other.
To JD
I have met my creator(s): Mum and Dad. No one else.
JD is one of my creators… if not for good ol’ Jack Daniels I would never have been conceived.
Intelligent design definition:
The assertion or belief that physical and biological systems observed in the universe result from purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance or undirected natural processes.
Creationist definition:
Creationism is the belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe were created in their original form by a deity.
Admittedly the term creationist is also used to describe people that interpret the bible literally.
I hope this makes my previous post less ‘ambiguous’ for you, i should have known i’d need to speak in laymans.
Intelligent Design seems to me to be a plausible concept if it could be kept separate from Creationsim. Perhaps Evolution can be thought of as a process of entelechy rather than anything haphazard..I wonder if such a judgmental or subjective statement as ‘Life on our planet is gradually improving and it may not be an accident’ would make an atheist choke on his beverage.
It would. Trust me i was drinking coca cola just then…
oooh i see what you did there
hehehe
If Jesus wasn’t created by man, why wasn’t he more original? From Bill Maher:
“For Xmas fun, let’s review the bios of some of the gods who came before Jesus – Dec 25 is a popular birthday!
Mithra – born 12/25, 12 disciples, died-rose on 3rd day, performed miracles, known as Lamb, “the way the truth the light” 600 yrs before JC
Krishna:virgin birth, baptized in river,raised dead,carpenter son,persecuted,crucified,ascended to heaven. 1,000 yrs before JC
Buddha: 12 disciples, walked on water, fed 500 from ‘small basket of cakes’,healed the sick…his mom? A virgin
Horus: announced by star in east on Dec 25, attended by 3 wise men , died, resurrected, mom a virgin…do you see a pattern here?”
Bill Maher is an idiot…what’s your point?
Ahhh….I forgot that creationists are slow to see points. I’ll try to use short words and type slowly for you:
Spending your life believing that any one book has all the answers is wasteful; dooming a child to living in a fantasy world where hopes and wishes and beliefs are better than critical thought and personal effort – that’s just criminally hurtful.
God is bigger than a book…that’s the point dumb ass!
Two books… God is bigger than two books.
and either the scriptures of said books are eternal or they arnt, you cant have it all your way. This is not burger king…
if your supposed to live your life by the book, then i would really really hope that god wasnt bigger then it/them. else he left something out. if it is the case that he is bigger, he aint telling you everything matey
Exactly…God is bigger than two books or a million books…God is one..there is only one…monotheism…and if that’s what you believe thene why not get to know who is he….he’s your creator after all…not billions of years of chance and coincidence.
Okay now your showing your ignorance in a much clearer way. Chance and coincidence? When did this happen? Are you referring to evolution as chance and coincidence? There isn’t a scientist on earth that would agree with you on that. Were products of natural selection, very very different from what you seem to think evolution is. Before making points on this you really should at least look it up :/
Your so determined to believe that i should expect to have been ‘created’, what a silly idea.
honestly, i was polite and did some reading into your….stuff. Do be a good egg and have the same consideration. A discussion cannot take place with information being held and understood on both side, and your side is sagging matey
actually, google evolution and try to find some substantiated evidence against it. its simple and quick. go ahead…
66 books. excluding the biblical rejects. i think.
It’s a great line…but I never in my life heard of the Buddha’s mother bing (supposedly) a virgin…the buddha was the biological son of a king in India. No supernatural origin.
‘being’ ^
I’M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THIS WOMAN SHOULD PUNCHED IN THE FACE, RIGHT?? WITH THOSE THOUGHTS, HER KIDS WILL NEVER PASS ANY SCIENCE CLASS
Unfortunately maggie you might be wrong, it’s a sad turn of events that creationists are graduating harvard these days and using their degrees to provide themselves with some sort of credibility. Amazes me that they can get a degree in biology, write essays on evolution, yet come out of it just as indoctrinated as they were when they went in.
“Amazes me that they can get a degree in biology, write essays on evolution, yet come out of it just as indoctrinated as they were when they went in.”
Same reason atheists know the “holy” books better than the theists do, yet we don’t believe in them.
The bigger thing to look at is that no creationist, regardless of their degree, has proven evolution wrong (in even any small way) and gotten a peer-reviewed paper published.
It is easy to pick the idiots out of the crowd just by looking at what they’ve published.
Agreed.
School trying to rape that poor child with their “information” and their unholy “facts” innocent child of god might as well be in a Nazi death camp. Training our children to be blood sucking, Mexican hugging, babie killin, jarb taking, gun takin, liberal feminazis. It all starts with this “education”.
Lol bloody institutionalisation it is! >.<
This is a Poe, right?
Lol of course not were erm, deadly serious…
and jd, if you actually did a little looking you find out that the book you put so much stock in was edited and re distributed by emperor Constantine in 325 ad, which coincidently is the edition where jesus gets his upgrade to deity, kinda like when ganfdalf becomes gandalf the white….you know, or when errend becomes eriond…if you want to read those stories too, they have much the same workings. swords and sandals, magic and dude with long hair. there are even some crucifixions in the malloreon in the series so you should feel right at home.
DUDE!! I loved the Belgariad and Mallorean series’!!! David and Leigh Eddings FTW!!!
Rather than join in the 2000+ comment religious debate, I’d just like to express my disappointment that this was even considered to be fail. When did it become fail for someone to stand up for their religious beliefs? Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, don’t we all have the right to believe in what we chose, and most importantly, defend it?
And I’m sorry, but it’s the parents’ responsibility to raise their children how they feel is best, and that includes matters of faith. I find nothing wrong with this person’s remarks, other than some bad grammar.
so you dont disagree that raising a child in ignorance is wrong? that if a child is ignorant about the facts of the world and it is the parents fault it is ok? This is why we are in the situation we are, it is not ok to ignore facts. the religious pick and choose which facts they want to believe and which ones they dont. science is great for medical breakthroughs, they love those facts, but choose to ignore the others. This is hypocrisy. This is the reason the world has moved so damn slowly for centuries. So you go ahead and sit on your fence and make excuses for idiocy, citing freedom of speech and thought, when they are both a lie and are persecuted fervently through out they world. Religion apologists need to stop, asses the facts and grow a set before giving way to lies and falsehoods just because those who wield them have been around for a good stint, or are powerful. Have some backbone people, there is a reason we are not enlightened as a race…..rant over
Very nicely put.
Everyone knows that whenever medicine saves someone’s life it’s because it was actually a miracle.
I assume you’d express the same opinion if the mother had denied the kid the right to learn English, instead opting for klingon? Nobody has the right to mislead children, not even parents. You act as though this mother has a right to ruin this childs education because he somehow belongs to her. IF a child is going to choose a religion it should come from freewill, not from denial of truth and exposure to religious fanaticism.
The parent could have just not allowed the child to go, actually. There was no need for the parent to explain their beliefs in a ‘my opinion is factual’ tone.
You can defend your religion but there was no need to be uppity like this person was.
Agreed but i think that the ‘uppity’-ness of this woman wasn’t so much caused by the school challenging her beliefs. It was probably more a reaction to the fear she felt when realising that her child might get home from that trip and question things his or herself. The worst thing for a young earth creationist to have to do is answer questions. Which is why we do our best to challenge them constantly
Don’t you think hearing different antagonist theories all the time is more misleading to a child than the school itself?
If you really want to stand for your beliefs, raise funds to build a school that teaches whatever truth you want!
Writing such a note to a PUBLIC school is just making creationists look like brainwashed proselitic
fanatics.
If you really want to stand or your beliefs find some evidence to support them instead of trying to dissuade people from looking at the evidence of alternative theories.
So, you think if the mom wants to teach her children that 2+2=5, she has the right to keep them out of maths class so their faith won’t be tainted?
If she wants their child to believe the earth is flat, she can keep them from geography? Or teach them the stork brings kids?
If I wanna keep my children out of school completely and teach them they are fairies living in Narnia, that’s fine too?
Of course it is.
Your children are your property to do with as you wish.
i completely agree with this parent. She has a right to stand up for her beliefs and should raise her kids how she feels is best. Its actually quite sad how many negative comments I’ve seen. The bible is the only book where many different men wrote it and everything coincides with each other. Jesus is the messiah and i personally believe that we are in the last days and many prophecies have already been fulfilled. Honestly people open your eyes. Read the book, study it, then TRY to prove me wrong. I challenge you to. When someone steps on to the scene and proclaims peace and signs a peace treaty with Israel be wary for the Tribulation has begun, don’t be fooled or deceived. Also to any true Christians reading this keep looking up the day is near to when we are called to go home.
I know im probably going to get negative feedback from this because the bible says if we stand for Jesus the world will hate us. I simply don’t care, there is a price to pay here that will be worth the reward Christians will receive. And all the negative comments prove my statement. A parent stands for her beliefs and gets people criticizing her.
God Bless
To Rachel
I do not hate you, why should I.
I just hope the Holy Squirrel will not punish you for that.
To Rachel
After rereading your commt
“Also to any true Christians reading this keep looking up the day is near to when we are called to go home.”
I hope this will be true soon, then we scientists have this wolrd for us.
I do too because comments like yours are reasons i want away from this earth and be with my Lord and Savior. Maybe when all us Christians leave the Earth some of you will open your eyes. Maybe not. But your right you scientist will have this world to yourselves and you will also go through God’s Wrath. Sounds kinda silly now don’t it? It won’t once your going through it.
But i will keep you in my prayers. And i hope and pray God wins your soul before its too late.
> Maybe when all us Christians leave the Earth some of
> you will open your eyes.
Do you have a departure date yet? I know you don’t always get along, but couldn’t you also take the Muslims with you?
I’m sure the rest of us would take very good care of our planet.
To Rachel
“But your right you scientist will have this world to yourselves and you will also go through God’s Wrath. Sounds kinda silly now don’t it?”
I think that is not silly, when christians go whereever they will go, we scientists will take good care of there world. And because there is no god, I am surely not afraid of any wrath. And should your god exist, my Holy Squirrel will protect me.
FWIW, I believe she is referring to the “rapture”, a teaching which is not universal to Christianity or a part of it’s core. If I remember correctly, prior to the 18th century NO Christians ever believed in it… It was an idea that originated in an early science fiction novel that was later erroneously (imo) adopted into theology by celebrity evangelists who possessed little scholarly depth.
But really, what does your Righteous Rodent have over the noodely manifestation of the FSM? As spoof goes, that one’s kinda hard to beat
To Miguel
“But really, what does your Righteous Rodent have over the noodely manifestation of the FSM? As spoof goes, that one’s kinda hard to beat”
My Righteous Rodent has the support, that my gf wrote a wonderful solstice poem about a squirrel. Thus I picked this special rodent
.
(btw. I love spaghetti bolognese)
you not allowed to be a lesbian! Breaks my heart :’(
To Miguel
“I believe she is referring to the “rapture”, a teaching which is not universal to Christianity or a part of it’s core.”
What is this rapture-teaching about?
Watch “Left Behind.” It’s a movie about it. But just remember, I think it’s as crazy as you likely will.
the rapture was actually taught by Jesus. We do not know the time we are going home, only god knows.
The rapture is when Jesus calls his true followers to heaven, and you probably will think its crazy like Miguel but what are you going to think once people all over the world suddenly disappear ?
I know all you think me crazy now, but you won’t once it happens.
And a question, have any of you read the bible, studied it?
To Rachel,
Yes I have read the bible. And my experience is, that usually atheists have the bible and other religious book more often than christians. To tell you something: my favorite part is Mose 3:18.
. Well, if this really would happen, that some people would really vanish (not die or go in hiding) I still would prefer the very unlikely existence of aliens to the even unlikelier existence of any god(dess).
To Miguel
Thank you for the hint.
I was surprised those people were “called home” naked. Aren’t these fundamentalist christians afraid of nakedness???
Lol I’m sure some are. But in general they are pretty pro-nakedness… as long as you’re married. To whoever is seeing you.
Does anyone here even move on to the next video? Also, I seriously didn’t even laugh once while reading this thread, though I understood all the wordplay, but… I didn’t laugh…
I have to say i laughed at pretty much everyone, i love a bit of in your face humour
It would have to be humorous first.
2,092ND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I feel for this teacher. I mean this parent should just pull their kids out and home school. As a teacher myself, when I get that 1 paragraph on how God created all the rocks, the only choice you have is to give it “F.” It is only hurting their child. If they want to indoctrinate their child fine, but they need to put them in Christian School then or homeschool.
I am a spiritual person married to an atheist. Both of us believe in evolution. (I even have a hard time saying it that way..like you believe in Santa) I think people just dont understand how overwhelming the evidence is for evolution to quote Dawkins.
Agreed. The problem is the people that don’t know try to pretend that they do. They’re so convinced of it that when they tell other people evolution is fallible they’re believed. It’s so irritating because all they have to do is look at the evidence but they don’t want to. In fairness though i’ve met many religious people that accept evidence and learn from it. The ones that i constantly encounter on the internet and especially it seems in america are the ones that preach in a debate about things they haven’t learned about, that goes for those that quote the bible without reading it and those that quote scientific fallacies without actually studying.
Great points! I love smart people.
A compliment! Thankyou
The thing is every person that’s posted on this blog has the ability to put something useful forward if they just ‘look it up’ their’s really no excuse for being stupid when you have google at your fingertips.
Darwin even said, on his deathbed, that there is no substantial evidence and that his theory was wrong. He said this on his DEATHBED.
Even if this story were true, which is isn’t, it would mean nothing. Darwin didn’t have access to modern genetic analysis. Ergo Darwin didn’t have have as vast a supply of evidence that exists today. You seem to be thinking along the lines that we accept evolution because Darwin said so. But that’s not the case at all. The reasons people accept evolution can be grouped into two major categories:
1) People who accept what the majority of scientists say. And by majority we’re talking about 97%. Lets be honest it would take years to study the field in depth to get anywhere near the level you would need to be to be an authority on this. Most people don’t have that time. But some do. And its those people that the average person will listen to.
2) People who accept it for rational reasons and their own intellectual pursuits and research. There are people who are willing to dedicate time to understanding the evidence, reasons, theories and branches of evolutionary development. People who will critically examine this topic.
The problem is that researching takes up time. So we can’t all be expected to read up on every single field of science which is why we have scientists who know what they’re talking about and who study only one field in incredible depth in the first place. Its the combined wealth of these fields which gives science such a broad spectrum.
“I am a spiritual person married to an atheist.”
That’s awesome. I’m an atheist that’s marrying a catholic woman in November.
Though she does have very deistic tendancies. Still, nothing wrong with a “mixed” marriage.
“Both of us believe in evolution. (I even have a hard time saying it that way..like you believe in Santa)”
Don’t have a hard time saying it that way. Belief is fine. The problem lies in the beliefs without evidence to support them (i.e. faith-based belief). Belief in evolution is very well justified.
Even belief in Santa is more justified than other mystic beings. It’s not faith-based… you see the presents under the tree in the morning. It’s false evidence, but at least it’s there.
Honestly though, this parent didn’t really need to say ‘hey listen we don’t believe in this…’.
There’s a difference between saying ‘my child has to have kosher food because of our religion’ and ‘just cause it’s in front of me doesn’t mean they have to believe it ’cause God said so.’
Obviously this parent was insulted by the nature of a simple field trip. Overly sensitive much?
What a load…we all know that Tiger Woods is the true second…erm make that third…coming…
That wacky carbon dating is a tool of the devil. Yee haw!
I hear the devil uses trees these days
And let’s not even go to Pb/U or Rb/Sr dating. They are so evil that Satan is scared of them.
The Bible actually never says God created earth in 1 day. It just states that in the beginning God created earth. Only after he created night and day Genesis says ‘one day’.
Therefore it is possible that God created earth over a period of thousands of years….
The Bible also says that God created night and day before the Sun.
It ain’t a science book, bro.
It clearly states that he created earth, which must have been made of water, btw, and then divided the waters into heaven and earth, then light, then land, and then the sun and stars. The order is completely wrong. Oh and whales come before land animals — also wrong.
where does it say god created the earth?
You just got that from the movie “Inherit the Wind”. Or you really do know your bible lolz
He probably is pretty popular actually, if he is confident in his beliefs and is nice to his classmates.
The real fail is as mentioned before, is that there are WAY too many crackpots that try and force feed their “beliefs” on the rest of us through legislation. The line that’s supposed to be separating church and state is so smudged and even erased in places it’s silly. Let the schools teach science and let the church teach it’s version separately. It’ll never happen that way because of the extremist that make all of the noise and look like crazies on TV. They’ll gather together and demand that “SOMEONE HAS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS CRISIS WE’RE IN!!!!!” And sure enough with enough pressure and threats of losing their positions the politicians press the issue. And sadly we have too many people either too lazy or who just don’t give a damn to vote against the crazies, and we end up with schools being FORCED to teach “alternate ideas” on scientific discoveries.
Also don’t get me wrong, I have no problems with religion, as long as it makes you feel good and helps you strive to be a good person. Just don’t try and MAKE people believe as you do or else.
lol. Religion, the longest running fail in history.
You religious people still don’t understand that your wrong…it only happened one way fools…..now I realize why religion has caused so much shitastrohies
You’re entitled to your own opinion.
Doesn’t mean its true.
Obviously.
I can say I think the sky is green, but we all know it to be blue.
No God, huh? Then how do we, as humans, delegate whats right and wrong? Or is it, that right and wrong is just based on what a person feels is right, or wrong, for themselves? If so, wouldn’t it then be right for me to go out and take (or, in moral terms, steal) someone’s wallet because I personally thought it was ok? Who among us really has the right to decide if something is wrong or not? This is where the idea of God comes in: having a basis for moral decisions and judgments.
Before you bash on someone else’s beliefs, seriously take a look at what they believe and try to think about how it works from several different view points. Its the ‘polite and considerate’ thing to do.
…wait, so you mean evolution of morality? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality
Beat me to it.
If nothing else (and forgive my gross simplifications here – follow the link about for more info) helping one another is beneficial to our social group, and being a social animal it is an advantageous trait in our evolution. We didn’t get to be the dominant life form on this planet by being loners.
Also we’re now sentient (or most of us are…), intelligent animals. We can decide for ourselves what constitutes a good way to live. Why some ways are typically more popular than others is a product of our evolution genetically, culturally and socially.
Frankly I find people who need to be told how to behave rather frightening. In RPG terms I’d rather be neutral or chaotic good than lawful good or worse – lawful neutral, any day!
@Lamina
“[Without God] Then how do we, as humans, delegate whats right and wrong?”
Our innate moral sense is a combination of our training, our culture, and our biological nature.
When a person asks “where does a sense of right and wrong come from?” if a person answers “God”, that person hasn’t answered the question.
People who believe in the same God can come to different moral conclusions. If ideas of right and wrong come from God, how can that be? Because they they just interpret his ‘will’ differently. How is a personal interpretation of God’s will any different than a personal moral choice?
“Then how do we, as humans, delegate whats right and wrong?”
By using logic and having a conscience… the same stuff you use to disregard the nasty bits in the Bible like stoning homosexuals, adulterers, non-believers, disobedient children, people that eat pork, people that trim their beard, or people accused of witchcraft.
Morality is dictated by society which is why that stuff doesn’t happen (generally) in the USA, but they still stone people in the Middle-East for daring to become an atheist or marry someone who the father does not approve of.
And, I’ll cut off the argument I know you’ll make: “But that stuff is in the Old Testament! It changed with the New Testament!”
Then why do you still follow the 10 commandments?
“Before you bash on someone else’s beliefs, seriously take a look at what they believe and try to think about how it works from several different view points. Its the ‘polite and considerate’ thing to do.”
I did. I was a catholic for 14 years (and in name for 22), I became a pagan, a deist, and finally an agnostic atheist. I did the research and the only thing that EVER holds up is science.
And, the “polite and considerate” thing to do is not postulate that people *NEED* a deity to be good. Atheists do just fine without one… hence why when you look at prison populations (at least in the USA) atheists are only .02% of the population, but we represent 15% of the general population. Christians are about 75% of the prison population, and 75% of the general population. i.e. Per captia, atheists are far under represented in the prison population as opposed to Christians, even if you skew the numbers to account for “prison conversions.” (For some reason those parole people love it when an inmate has a religious conversion…)
*****
Fixed: This is where the idea of *LOGIC AND REASON* comes in: having a basis for moral decisions and judgments.
*****
Bravo, bravo! Now if only people would listen to you. *sigh* I think religious people hardly ever see sense…
yeah god is a real compass of morality, so much so his priests, those chosen to comfort and spread his word, abuse children. You really think God, if he were all that they say he is, would allow someone like that into his fold? I didnt think so
To Lamina,
“If so, wouldn’t it then be right for me to go out and take (or, in moral terms, steal) someone’s wallet because I personally thought it was ok?”
There are people who do that, they are called thieves and robbers. And guess what. It is forbidden by law. No god needed.
Still….
“You’re entitled to your own opinion.
Doesn’t mean its true.”
Now now….don’t condemn these folks in Uganda. They’re just practicing their beliefs on somebody’s children:
“Human sacrifices ‘on the rise in Uganda’ as witch doctors admit to rituals
Witch doctors in Uganda have admitted their part in human sacrifice amid concerns that the practice is spreading in the African country.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/uganda/6944292/Human-sacrifices-on-the-rise-in-Uganda-as-witch-doctors-admit-to-rituals.html
The caption misses “know” at the beginning. I know someone probably already caught that, but I didn’t feel like looking through ALL the goddamn comments since people are generally stupid and not entertaining.
SO YEAH. Fix that? *leaves*
Why would you want to risk not believing, then dying and going to hell? I’m believing, I don’t want to suffer for an eternity.
1. You can believe in god without believing that everything written in the bible is literally true.
2. You better get busy, because if that’s why you believe you have about 200 religions to get through. The Muslims have a hell too, and you wouldn’t want to go there. Zoroastrianism, ancient Sumerian religion, Mayan religion, etc, etc ,etc. Get to worshipping, you don’t have much time.
You can’t make youself believe something that isn’t true. Your just lying to yourself if that’s the case and hypothetically you would still go to hell, because you don’t believe, you pretend to ‘just in case’.
Im not pretending Ive had certain experiences that have led me to believe.
I hear this all the time ‘i’ve had certain experiences that have led me to believe’. When people can’t support their beliefs with any facts they fall back on mystical experiences that could be interpreted any way but that they’re not going to go into detail about for fear of the rational thinking actually THINKING about it. When they do they’re usually confused about the facts they’re presenting and they repeatedly trip over themselves. Whether you’ve had experiences or not your believing because you think you might as well, not because you know it’s true.
Well, Joe – what if Allah is the one true God. Do you dare risk not believing and risking suffering for all eternity?
Then your god is clearly a douche bag for torturing good and decent people who don’t follow his often arbitrary rules, and the only reasonable response is rebellion.
Sure, you may not risk in not believing, but the question is in which god? There are so many to choose from, how do you know you chose the right one?
Why would you want to risk being a homosexual, then dying and going to hell? I’m being heterosexual, I don’t want to suffer for an eternity.
Why would you want to risk being a democrat, then dying and going to hell? I’m being a republican, I don’t want to suffer for an eternity.
Why would you want to risk being pro-choice, then dying and going to hell? I’m being pro-life, I don’t want to suffer for an eternity.
Why would you want to risk spilling your seed, then dying and going to hell? I’m going bareback, I don’t want to suffer for an eternity.
Why would you want to risk eating shellfish, then dying and going to hell? I’m going to never eat shellfish again, I don’t want to suffer for an eternity.
You do not chose your beliefs. You can chose to ignore them though. Which is what you seem to want. You seem to want people to stop asking the awkward questions and just shut up and pretend your religious idea’s make sense. Your arguments assumes you can fool an omniscient god into thinking you believed in him. When he has known from reality that you never would believe.
The thing I really struggle with in religion is if there is an omnipotent omniscient being floating around out there then free will must necessarily be false. Then how is punishment justified? To get over this you develop the old free will argument later on with everyone having the choice to either be good or be bad and be punished accordingly.
How do you reconcile these two beliefs side by side? You aren’t fully deterministic or for free will either. You are trying to adopt two mutually exclusive choices.
Nah, they don’t really believe in the Bible literally, but hey, that’s a freaking good excuse to not have to do 5 pages or real stuff and only a half page of made up BS !~ Great Plan !!~
To the person at the beginning of the thread who stated that there was no evidence of evolution today: YUP, there is. Diseases mutate all the time. Take the swine flu for example. antibiotics have to be tweaked all the time because germs mutate into stronger strains.
AND, the distasteful bit about religion and religious folk: I was raised to think critically, be open minded and purposefully with no religion, though ceremony was a big tenet and morals and doing the right thing (woah, morals from the non-religious people). I’ve heard of met so many people raised religiously who were TORMENTED! They were constantly in danger of being wrong, or doing something that would send them to hell. Ewwwww. no thanks. I can’t masturbate or touch myself? or I’m going to hell? My gay friends can’t merry each other? Your religion is about hate, un-acceptance, lies, manipulation, and making people feel bad about themselves and others. One could argue that it is the work of the devil to spread fear and hate.
No thanks.
Also, I’ve never met a religous person who had all the answers. So until you do, SHUT UP!
I’ve never met a religious person that holds ANY answers >.<
Snooky, Miles670, you two are my heroes. Thank you for posting these comments, for it is very refreshing to hear some sense from other human beings.
Always a pleasure
I was always taught that the world was created in 7 days God time, and if you read later in the bible God time is 1,000 years so im pretty sure it took him 7,000 years to make earth and then we started so why cant the world be millions of years old on top of that all these stories were passed down through the years think of how fast story’s change in a game of telephone with just 10 people let alone hundreds of years of hundreds of people
But see, you’ve dug yourself into a hole there. When I use your example of many people I can totally prove that wrong: it’s not that difficult to get people believing in a story (think of how rumors start). Especially since something like religion is so set in society; it’s such a natural desire of humans to know the truth. If you can’t find the truth, you make something up instead of searching longer. Think about our world today: if religion was started this very year, everyone would think it was neurotic. Cults are basically the same thing that many religions were a long time ago, and look what happens to them. They’re shunned and looked upon as “evil.” What makes your god so valid? Past cultures have believed and worshipped their gods with unfaltering dedication––the Ancient Greeks, for example. And no one (or at least a religious population too small to really count) believes in the Greek mythology. Hmm? If religion has so much proof, how come religious people cannot answer simple questions like these?
Sorry if it seems like I was ranting. Have a nice day!
Just to go off topic now, I’d like to say thank you to (most of) the people on this site. Ive actually learned a great deal about science, theory, evolution etc. It’s opened up my brainpan a lot, so thanks!
When I say site I meant this topic of discussion… :$
Same here bud, i know quite a lot about this subject but i always find that with discussions such as these if nothing else my knowledge is refined.
I am here for the same reason
so thank you all
Just to through in a comment on the discussion here, I would like to point out that 90% of datting mothods acctualy point to the earth being younger than 10thousand years old and that the carbon datting method is unreliable as they have tested rocks that were made from recent volcanoes that have come back being billions of years old, or a rock with petrified wood in it so they would have to be the same age, but they come back with very different ages. If you want more info or more proof about the earth being young, or more info on the whole creation vs evolution I recomend http://creation.com/
In my knowledge, carbon dating is only really very accurate when used on specimens that were ONCE LIVING. Petrified wood = once living. Amazing! Because, guess what? Living organisms are composed of a lot of carbon! No wonder we use it for closely estimating the ages of once-living specimens.
Michael, because the creationist websites tell you that the dating methods are unreliable doesn’t mean it is true. Get out a textbook (an actual textbook, not one from Bob Jones Jr. University) and learn how the dating works for yourself.
As a Christian myself, I want you to know that fundamentalism is not the only way to follow Christ. The natural world is another AMAZING book that God has written, and science (real science, not the easy lies the creationists make up because their faith can’t stand a little questioning) gives you the tools to read that book. By denying yourself rationalism, free thought, and deductive reasoning, you are closing a vast window into the wonder of God’s universe.
nice to see an unbiased source.
According to the Gospel of The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) the world was indeed created in 6 days by the touch of his noodly appendages. Everything was aged appropriately in a time dilation event so that school kids could have fun on geological outings. Lighten up and join us! Our heaven is better! We have a stripper factory and beer volcanoes Arghhhhh!!!!
To Marie
your heaven sounds very male, and …
The Holy Squirrel did it, you heathen
Butch women love strippers too LOL
obviously not all butches
Faith and science co-exist. Christians don’t need to reject the latter to have the former. Sigh.
Too true, but you wouldn’t bloody know it the way some of these nutters carry on.
True. But they do have to float away from a literal interpretation (which makes some sense) to airy fairy metaphorical bollocks (which is laughable at best).
As they take this step the smart one’s figure out that sooner or later the religion they hold as the “one true truth” will devolve into weak ass watered down christianity (almost a deistic belief).
I mean for example it’s kinda hard for people to understand why that guy is being nailed to a bit of wood if there’s no original sin to die for to begin with.
To Jason!!!
Yup, I have no problem with that.
The problem is many Christians (and other religions; I won’t limit the issue to one) won’t let science advance without seriously needing to impair its progress. Both science and religion are extremely conflicting, but in purpose they are both searching for truth.
I think the world’s motto should be: I won’t push my beliefs in your face if you won’t push yours in mine.
Everything would be so much simpler. *sigh*
The problem i, religion doesn’t search for truth, it leads people to think extablishments already have it, all you have to do is follow blindly.
It’s amazing how many people show up to post on anything that mentions Evolution vs. Creation, perhaps because it’s the most vitriolic debate on or off the internet.
Still, several posts made me want to comment. First, the “Biblical story of Creation” seems to mean “7 days, 24-hours each”, but I can’t help wondering if the people who say this have a 1-chapter Bible in hand. True it is that the *FIRST* chapter of Genesis introduces Creation in 7 days, but if one reads beyond the first chapter (to the *SECOND* chapter, specifically the 4th verse), one finds this: “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.” Now we have “generations” and a single day. Why? Because “day” is a term in the scriptures that refers to a period of time with a defined purpose but of unspecified length. Unless we are all amebas, we don’t have even a single generation in a day. So, the “Biblical story of Creation” does not need to mean “closed-minded, anti-science extremist who creates a special brand of half-truth that they think vindicates their narrow-minded interpretation of ancient writ”.
As to time being Evolutions enemy, actually, time is it’s friend. It is only over vast expances of time that you can see a gradual change over *GENERATIONS*, which is Evolution in a nutshell. Yes, the universe is exapnding, and has been over trillions of years, so a few million here or there are insignificant to entropy. (This is similar to saying that the Empire State Building cannot exist because a tower of wooden blocks can barely stand six feet, let alone thousands of feet. It’s a non-sequitur.)
I think that a lot of society’s push away from the “faith of our fathers” has come because of this debate. One one side, you have ignorant, dishonest, manipulative religious people who twist sacred writ to say what they want it to say just so they have a crusade to fight against science. On the other side you have faithless, antagonistic, arrogant scientists who purposefully try to throw scientifc facts and evidence at people in a way that belittles any belief in a Higher Being. In the middle, you have the vast majority of people who are somewhere inbetween. Why it is that everyone can’t use some understanding and mutual respect instead of hatred and contempt? We are all looking at the same coin. The fact that it says “Creation” on one side and “Evolution” on the other doesn’t change the fact that it’s the same exact coin we are squabbling over. You could spend a lifetime showing dozens, if not hundreds, of pieces of evidence that show the two have a lot more in common than different, but still there would be people fighting over this. It’s really very sad.
If the coin your referring to represents truth (which is after all what were fighting for) then it doesn’t have one side creation and one side evolution. It says evolution, all over it it says evolution, it’s when the people that look at that coin deny it’s existence because it doesn’t point to what they want it to, we have to fight. Your arguments the same as every other religious apologist. Truth is truth, you have people that accept and further it, and you have people that deny and impede it. Your position is to say both are equally acceptable, no, they’re not.
OR, you could research Occam’s razor which states that in most theories, the one that states it simply and with which the evidence provided makes most sense usually is correct. So here, let’s take a poll: which sounds most correct?
A) An infinitely large human-like entity in the sky observes everything in our daily lives and created the universe from nothing and then Earth with all its forms of life in a week.
OR
B) Everything has happened spontaneously, and we evolved from simple cells that were formed from the right elements bonding and making conditions suitable and favorable for life.
Personally, I think B is much more simple and perhaps even more valid than A. What say you?
You can argue that no, no! It’s not a week-week, it’s generations of individuals! But when first the Bible says one thing and then goes back to contradict that, I begin to smell a rat. It doesn’t seem very believable to me.
Anyways, hope all of you have an excellent day!
Best,
Science Forever!
This thread is fail.
Yes evolution has holes when you look at it more closely. However creationism has far more holes.
Where are all the fossils that show the changes in between all the animals over time through the theory of evolution?
If a monkey turned into a human, where are all the fossils that show that? Shouldn’t there be fossils showing each and every detail of them changing, and wouldn’t they be in great abundance?
I’m not trying to take down the THEORY of evolution; I’m just saying that there are a lot of things missing in it.
Monkeys did not turn into humans. They share a common ancestor. There is a very SLIGHT difference
Bloody hell – if you’re going to try and make some kind of argument, at least get SOME of it right…
I’m not trying to take down the THEORY of electromagnetism. But how comes rotating electric charges, as apparent in atomic structures, don’t emit radiation and collapse inwards on each other? You see the theory of electromagnetism has a lot of things missing.
Were this said before the development of quantum physics it still wouldn’t have made classical electromagnetism wrong in most cases. It doesn’t invalidate everything else we know of electromagnetism either.
Biology is a difficult science mainly because when dealing with origin of humans we’re talking about a time gone by. Whilst there are fossils that show the transitions. The kind of evidence you’re suggesting is simply unfeasible. However we have observed species forming directly. An example is in bacteria and viruses due to their rapid life’s. It effectively increased the potential for evolution by allowing us to see successive generations of organisms within a relatively short time frame. But there is no reason that ONLY bacteria show this. The only conclusion is that this effect is present in all life forms.
good day
sean14916
I CAN’T BELIVE I READ ALL OF THIS
you’re right, there are missing links and the whole theory is uncomplete. but well… no one can ignore the obvious evidence.
no one except… yeah. i just can’t believe how stupid people can be. god placed the fossils so that the true believers can be parted from the not so true believers? the earth is 6000 years old even if we’re sure that we see the light of stars 20000 lightyears away?
and it’s like someone posted here before: you can’t seriously trust the bible as an exact document about the development of the earth. people wrote this, and other people sorted out the parts which didn’t please them… you can use it to follow the way of thinking and living of the people who lived at that time, and of course, it’s still an impressing book. but it’s a book and has nothing to do with biology or bing bang theories.
so what… i’ve got nothing against god, but his fanclub annoys me. to be accurate, the GROUPIES.
i for my share am an agnostic. there is much much room for a higher being in the theories about the beginnig of the universe or in the quantum theory. i just can’t understand these radical folks.
sorry for mistakes, am german.
If there is god, he could easily delete the message I just wrote. It could be just a coincidence that a virus deleted this comment, It still wont happen!
You sir are a freaking DUMBASS. God won’t show up when you challenge him. He shows up when he knows its the right time. He doesn’t have to show you that he is real. You made the choice to challenge him and turn away from him and on Judgement day, he will turn from you
The reason you believe what you just wrote is?
To Rachel
Why has YOUR god entitled you to insult other people?
So god won’t actually provide any first hand evidence, or better yet a televised interview, but you still consider it turning away?
There is a god.
And if you listen very carefully, you can hear Her spinning in Her grave.
Aaaaand if I were the teacher, I would be obligated to fail the kid’s paper.
obligated under what terms? I’m sorry, here in america we have something called “freedom of religion,” and unless a person’s actions interefere with anyone else’s education, you have no right to fail them on the basis of religion. This note clearly has no intention of doing such, and thusly I label you ignorant.
But you can fail them in a science class on the basis that there argument has no scientific support.
And no the bible is not a scientific document.
Belief’s are not an excuse for ignorance and stupidity.
I would like to voice my appreciation about this comment. I think that it sums up the problem with the creationist stance perfectly.
good day
sean14916
And THIS is why I don’t stick to ze bible.
Holy Shit!
Heello people wake up and smell the coffee. He is God of the universe. He holds all that ever was and will be in His hands. I don’t think his days and our days are the same
gee you would think the omnipotent omniscient creator would have foreseen this potential problem in the mistranslation and expanded his opinions on this point as to eliminate confusion on the matter.
but thank you Savannah for taking the time to tell us what god means.
good day
sean14916
FLANDERS!!!
No one pointed this out, so I will, only because I lived it and heard it everyday of my life for 14 years.
These people are Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are the ones who don’t believe in dinosaurs (“Satan put those fossils there to mislead us!” … seriously.) and they believe the earth is 6,000 years old. Not billions of years old.
I heard this nonsense for a long time and I was shocked that there’s still people who believe this crap.
huh? really? hmm… I don’t think so. I just became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and I’ve never heard them say that. “Satan put those fossils there to mislead us!”? Really? Man you’re a dope. And they don’t believe the earth is only 6,000 years old…the Bible doesn’t say. But if you follow Bible chronology closely, it says than man has been in existence for 6,000 years. I just came into the religion and I love it.
Regardless of belief, all people should have the opportunity to learn all aspects of their surroundings, so they personally have the tools to make an educated decision for themselves. Whether all agree or not, an individual’s belief is their own. What is unfortunate about this “note” is not what the family believes, but that they don’t allow their children to be exposed to other ideas and ways of thinking. Not allowing these children to use their minds to come to a conclusion on their own is truly unfortunate.
Absolutely…very well put.
Sure. But “learn all aspects of their surroundings” should mean teaching them all the biological mechanisms of evolution, so they can see how stuff works. Not teach them a fairytale and say “Well maybe it was these biological processes that made the species. Or it could have been fairies who did it, or a magic penguin from outer space.”
We know creationism is wrong, there’s not a single bit of evidence for it, and we know as a fact the earth is not young. So creationism shouldn’t be taught as one of the possibilities of how the world came about.
Also, some explanations are simply too complicated, so it’s not really a good idea to let primary school children “decide for themselves”.
What’s most interesting to me in the creation vs evolution debate is that evolution is not the corollary of creation. Speciation and origin-of-life theories are. Granted, speciation can involve selection, much like evolution (though both processes involve other mechanisms too e.g. genetic drift), but the process of evolution does not necessarily involve or lead to speciation.
But, you know, carry on misrepresentin’.
everyone here realizes that we just had a 2500 comment argument about religion/evolution on Failblog.org, right? Maybe instead of trying to be right, you should go out and find a job people…
To G-zus
nice comment, and so utterly useless!!
What can you do, G-zus, you are a popular guy!
It’s because of religious freaks like that that our country is so F-ed up. Imagine if we had a president who believed we were to go to war in the name of God…….wait.
Many of you, on both sides of the debate, fail.
seeing as that is by far the most likely scenario you also fail for making such an obvious comment.
good day
sean14916
Shit there’s a lot of failures in communication. It took me like a minute to get to the bottom cause of the lagg.
really too much failures in communication for this topic..everyone that trys to convince the other one from his view is fail
My view is that you’re a wrong. Is it okay for me to go around telling everyone you’re wrong? I mean I’m entitled to my views right?
After all trying to convince people who believe that you’re wrong otherwise would be dangerous to their views. We already know how much you oppose that…
we’ll have to agree to disagree
good day
sean14916
You know god said love your neighbor (and no he doesn’t mean the person you live next to) so all of you christians should be a little nicer( and yes I love you all). and to all you athiasts out there, in the words of the guy on the HMS commercial, I say “bless your heart”
What’s an athiast?
The word that you have a questionmark after seems to be: “Leaving”
HIS MOM IS SO RIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two of the many problems I have with “Creationism” and God:
First. Darwin published in 1859 and Coca Cola devised in 1885 – both world wide in less than 200 years; creation October 23 4004 BC by Archbishop Ussher and God still not worldwide even now – failure to communicate.
Second. Commandments – You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
By this I take it that the various religious slaughters throughout history have God s blessing including the Holocaust and Inquisitions. So much for Thou shall not kill, a commandment that even Moses could not obey as he set the tribe of Levi to slay their fellow Hebrews. Another failure to communicate.
Evolution is real, creationism is an idol that the ignorant worship as once people worshipped a Golden Calf.
NOw ligniten up and return to the Sillimanite or friable matter.
East is east and West is west . Never shall the twain meet.
Lmfao stupid christians
Geology Rocks!
Not so much a fail as incredibly depressing.
Believe in creationism, don’t like geology, well Upper Jurassic!
If you don’t want your kids to learn evolution, send them to a private school.
If you send them to public school anyway, let them finish their assigned homework and teach them your family beliefs at home.
Even if you do send your kids to private school, shouldn’t they know commonly accepted theories, so they don’t come off as totally uneducated in the real world?
Arguing creationism vs. evolution is pointless because each “theory” requires a different view of reality, and those realities are totally incompatible. I’m not saying that Christians can’t believe in evolution, because many do; I’m just saying that a creationist will not be able to comprehend an evolutionist any more than an evolutionist will be able to comprehend a creationist… unless you’re in the unique position of having been solidly on both sides of the fence. In which case, you probably realize that it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t do stupid things like embarrass your kids at school.
Did he die?
Um, this is seriously fail. I can’t believe she’s brainwashing her children to believe this crap.
And yes, I know, to all those die-hard Christians out there: I’m going to go to hell, my soul has been given to the devil, blah blah blah. Oh yeah, in my spare time I sacrifice virgins and drink their blood in the name of Satan. Happy?
The thing about science…it all makes sense and fits together, and none of the people are crazy or will try to kill you over saying one wrong thing. (Unless they’re REALLY angry.) Like this crazy Christian mom. Yikes…
I promised myself that I would stay out of this debate, alas, that cannot be. Yes, both sides strive for the truth. But neither will accept the other’s findings. The creationists go by faith, which I’ll get into in a minute. The evolutionists go by fact. In the interest of full disclosure I tend to side with the evolutionists. But, the creationists think that the Bible is God’s word to man, not God’s word as described by man. The problem (as I see it) is that the book has been written and rewritten by men, who are fallible, according to the christian credo. Therefore it is possible that the Bible is NOT as it was intended. Now, many will argue that God would not have allowed his word to be … changed. BUT by that same argument, God apparently gave man free will, thus we (mankind) are free to draw our own conclusions. So who is one to believe? Science or faith. Both are equally compelling in their own right. Science will never be able to trump faith, regardless of how much evidence it compiles. One simply cannot defeat blind faith, regardless of how ridiculous it may seem. A person will believe what they want to believe, contrary to any proof one may offer.
I believe that you are right and I don’t care what the others may say.
You’re good for my ego, you know that?
It takes my computer two and a half minutes to load this opus of a fail. Just for the fun of it I down loaded and file this fail a couple of days ago. It was about 2.75 mgs then. What shall it be now?
Look at what you write and do to measure your self worth. You are a pearl.
It’s not a point of defeating blind faith, it’s a point of fighting for truth, no matter how much people cling to falsehoods, every shred of evidence we discover makes them look more and more foolish, thus slowly removing the power they have, that’s what were fighting for.
I’m not trying to defeat blind faith. Blind faith doesn’t seem to need much help in that department.
Agreed, but i was talking about me
I just tried to read all the comments in this fail and I had to stop. I had to stop or I would explode. I very purposefully stayed out of this argument. But, for crying out loud! This has gone on for several days, and clearly will not be solved by us. Can we not just drop it in an agreement to disagree sort of thing? Because CLEARLY we are never going to agree. No matter how hard each side tries.
Why would you want to just drop a debate in which so many people are learning s much? Most of us know that this issue can’t be resolved, but debating and debating more introduces people to facts and thoughts they’d never encountered before. You should never just agree to disagree and ‘drop it’ you should argue out your differences and learn as much as you can in the process.
Arguing doesn’t solve much. As, I believe, we as a people have proven. All it does is prove we will find a way to argue.
I disagree. Fighting, violence, and doing nothing, these are the things that don’t solve much. Debating over the things that matter is the best way to go.
But how can one (effectively) argue faith?
Debate is wonderful for the most part, yes, but is there not a point when both sides should say “enough is enough”? No one side will sway the other, this much is known. This much is accepted.
The point where we say enough is enough is when we’ve learned everything we can from each other. That point will never come.
But why is it impossible to agree to disagree? Surely we as a species have evolved that much.
It’s not impossible. It just serves no purpose, better to learn from one another than to stay ignorant of anothers reasons.
But surely agreeing to disagree is better than fighting each other? No one is suggesting that we stay ignorant of the other’s beliefs. Rather, we should be aware of and understand that while different from our own, they are just as valid.
Of course agreeing to disagree is better than fighting each other, but it isn’t better than continuing to debate for as long as theirs something to learn. I have to disagree with your last point though, religious views are not just as valid as the views of science. Not when they refer to geological time scales, rising from the dead, communicating with a higher power, praying to cure disease or illness. All of the above things fall purely in the within the realms of science. Waiting for god to fix it does nothing but impede.
And who are you to say this? Do you have absolute proof? No. And neither do I. Debate is well and good, but eventually, an agreement must be made.
Firstly, i’m someone that spends every day of his life looking at evidence, reading up on evidence and comparing it against other evidence.
What is it you want absolute proof of? My above comments? We have absolute proof that the earth is much much older than the religious claim, we have absolute proof that people don’t rise from the dead, we have absolute proof that prayer does NOT make a difference when it comes to the recovery of medical patients (outside of placebo).
You ask me if i have absolute proof but form it as a statement rather than a question. You reply no t yourself without really thinking about it, the answer is yes. We have ABSOLUTE proof.
I would also like to say that at this point, I am very tired, and ready to sleep. So good night and all that. This debate had gone on long enough, for a humor site, don’t you think?
I don’t. I think every chance to debate and learn should be taken and continued, wherever it may be.
So we have absolute proof that the world is older than some would have us think. Big whoop.
So we have proof that prayer doesn’t do a whole lot. So what?
Does this solve anything in the grand scheme of things? No? I didn’t think so.
My reply wasn’t meant to solve world hunger or anything. You asked a question and presumed to know the answer, i was merely pointing out your mistake. Your trying to belittle what i said with ‘big whoop’ and ‘so what?’ because you don’t like being shown that your wrong. You should learn from it, not cry about it.
If you don’t mind, I would like to sleep now. If this debate is still going on in when I wake up, (dear GOD after how many days?) I will take it up then.
You don’t need my permission to sleep lol. No doubt the debate will still be raging when you return.
For the record, who’s crying?
Last I saw, we were more or less on the same side. I just don’t really see the need to fight about it.
Not fighting! Debating
I’m not so sure about the same side, i’m no religious apologist
I seriously believe IQ tests should be administered before a couple chooses to have a baby, luckily i have a physicist for a father and he was able to explain this crazy phenomenon known as evolution to me at a young age…
Neither Science nor Religion is fact, they are both just theories.
What people need to understand is to accept each other that there can be more than 1 side to everything!
By the definition your using no facts exist. I i were to say that i am now using the internet, that would just be a theory. What could you possibly hope to gain from an argument like that?
You’re right, but facts-based theories are to be learnt at school and faith-based theories are to be discovered in church.
Misunderstanding of the word theory #745,106,367,318,112.
To Snowyjoe
“Neither Science nor Religion is fact, they are both just theories.”
I am sorry, where do you live? Plane 9 in Outere Space???
Ok so if god created us. Just out of curiosity who created god?
Or did he evolve out of thin air?
(it’s like the chicken or the egg, a dead stop for any discussion)
This picture is another reason why there should be a test for people who want to have children. Even if they are Christian they should give thier children a choice and not push thier own beliefs on to them until they are old enough to decide for themselves.
As far as I know there has been ”fast” evolution recorded. Most recently the influx of sharks into Autrailia’s fresh water rivers that have evolved to survive in Brackish water due to the sea temperature changes brought on by global warming.
Also as far as my education allows me to know scientists do not believe the universe was created from ‘nothing’ they believe it expands until it contracts in upon itself causing the ‘Big Bang’
Since our current technology cannot see beyond a certain point in our Universe, I believe its referred to as ‘white noise’ We have no current way of establishing more at this stage.
I was brought up as a Christian and I believe in christian values, however I find it difficult to reconcile myself with most of the bible not just creationism
Such as: homosexuals are evil. My best friend from when I was little is gay and the lovliest guy I’ve ever met. I also can’t agree with the fact that women are inferior since in my experience they seem equal in both bad and good ways.
If I announced myself as a Christian I would be a hypocrite. I think the quandry in which I find myself is not unusual to most ‘Christian raised’ young people today.
Very well put.
You Sir are an evolved human.
A wonderful comment
The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the only treu [sic] church.
I wanted to be just as bad with the spelling and all, but I can’t bring myself to let such awfulness go. Hence I corrected myself, but let the mitsake [sic] stnad [sic].
My parents were pretty close to this (I wasn’t allowed to color pictures of jack-o-lanterns because Halloween was the Devil’s holiday and watched Kent Hovind’s videos in Sunday School because my dad thought he was ‘great’), and I was definitely not a popular kid. Now they wonder why I’m an atheist.
Its funny how many people accept as “The Word of God” a hand-written document from 2000 years (or so) ago. Think about that a second. Hand written 2000 years ago. Now look at the note that the parent wrote. How many of you were able to clearly read the words on the bottom of that permission slip? And people want to try and decode the writings of people who wrote in a language(s) long dead, and incomprehensible today. Linguists have to “agree” on the definitions of the words today. And they argue about it constantly. Hells bells people, we have dialectal differences ourselves! Not to mention, the first *serious* attempts to create the Bible weren’t made for almost 60 years AFTER the death of Jesus. Now, even more pointed, go collect some 80 year old people who witnessed an event 60 years ago and get them to tell you “the facts of the same events” and see exactly how many descriptions are the same. Get real people. Yah, lets sit down and try to write out something that happened 60 years ago. The Bible is NOT fact folks, and is just as open to interpretation as any other collection of writings.
Also – right on Herzel.
Thanks to all these comments, I’ve finally discovered two reasons to use Safari instead of Firefox – (1) Firefox dies at 3.1MB when trying to print this thread to PDF; Safari prints to PDF fine, and (2) Safari loads much much faster!
Now…the question is….if I choose to BELIEVE that Firefox will load faster and won’t blow up….will my belief trump empirical evidence
Just use normal OS if you are using macosx. If don’t use opera or chrome. Safari is piece of shit compared to anything else.
All browsers have something wrong with them. Juts like all operating systems. That said my vote is for Firefox (and Xp/Linux).
I understand her logic at all.
this statement has some kind of syntax error in it.
Why have Christians devolved into the lowest form of man? I miss the Christians that went around starting wars over their holy land, praising their god and ALL that he ‘created’. Now they’ve become sniveling fools, all but blinded by their own faith. Convinced that they are doing God’s will. Before they do their silly protests, they should consider this:
Does anyone really know what God wants? Discuss. (As I don my flamesuit.)
Fundamentalists are out to destroy America with an avalanche of ignorance, it’s as simple as that. As a Christian I am utterly offended that they pretend to speak for my religion.
It’s all madness. Why bother to know how it starts? It can’t do anything to us. At all. Ever. Evolution, we won’t notice it. If religions right, we can’t stop it. So why bother?
Because the more we know, the more we can use that information. If people hadn’t bothered to investigate as many things as they have we wouldn’t have computers, phones, cars, well we wouldn’t have technology to cut a long story short.
But, That’s things that can HELP, knowing how the world came to be really doesn’t change much. And note, I’m not religious, but I’m not really anti-religion either.
Understanding the processes that happened then helps us understand the processes happening now and it helps us predict things that are likely to happen in the future. The field of physics is learning a crap load from the LHC, there is a lot of money in that field, and for good reason.
Yes, but hasn’t it affected people, oh, 200 years ago?
I don’t understand what you mean, hasn’t what affected people 200 years ago?
Either one. I’ve never heard anything about evolution, or a god, doing ANYTHING in the past 200 years. If I’m wrong, sorry.
Oh! I meant “Why hasn’t it affected…”
Don’t be sorry for ignorance of a subject there is a lot that all of us don’t know, all you have to do is look
In the last 200 years we have seen evolution many times, with the elephants, with viruses, with language, and with many animals. Don’t forget that evoluion theory is being applied to computer programs today that can actually simulate the evolution of IDEAS, it’s very impressive work. The best thing we’ve taken from evolution is that it has helped us achieve things it would have otherwise taken us much longer to achieve, flight, agriculture, building structure. Many of the things we work so hard to build such as planes and boats and housing evolution had achieved thousands of years ago. Just look at the animals all around you. Hell, look at yourself and compare your joints with those of the machines you see everyday
Point. But what about the side of religion? Nothing has happened, making it completely illogical for people to continue to believe it. Again, if I’m wrong, sorry.
It does make it completely illogical. Unfortunately where science bases its ideas on things we can look at and prove the religious have developed a very clever technique of maintaining power and control through promises. You see if a scientist stated something as fact he is completely vulnerable to being torn down when others look at the evidence behind his claims, this is why we go to so much trouble to write reports, to study evidence, and to document studies thoroughly. The religious don’t have to do that because everything that they claim is only to be revealed (so called) after death. Very convenient for them. I personally think that religion clings to death because that is where most of our fears lie, and if they can claim to know more about what happens afterwards then people will want to find solice in that, it’s really very unfortunate, because they’re promising everything, but basing it on nothing but peoples fears. The idea of a priest holding the collection plate in front of an old lady that’s struggling to pay for her heating upsets me, and all she gets in return is the empty promise that after death she will see her loved ones again.
“the religious have developed a very clever technique of maintaining power and control through promises”
Ain’t that the gospel truth! Religious people very often exploit the fears of others for power and control. It is very factual, but not completely universal.
“Dear Jesus, please save me from your followers…”
But as much as it is possible to disagree with the establishment from the inside, I stick to the words of Agustine: “The Church is a whore…. but she is also my mother.”
To TheInsane
“Evolution, we won’t notice it.”
Only if you chose to ignore it. Otherwise there are ways to notice evolution. (Just as a reminder look for “Birkenspanner” and “Evolution”.)
Why hasn’t it been noticed before, if we can now? Evolution’s supposed to be a long process, or at least, that’s what I’ve been told.
Evolution can be a long process but it depends on how quickly an organism replicates or how many generations it can go through in any amount of time. For example, you’ll notice that viruses evolves very quickly, within days, weeks or even months. If you look at the case of elephants with large ivory tusks you can see evolution happening with them over just the last 60-70 years. It’s really very interesting, i suggest you look into it.
That makes sense… But how can you say it’s not some God influencing it, or even invisible aliens?
You just think rationally, if we say that god is influencing it then were hypothesising something where there is no need. As rationally minded people we only put blame where blame is due, where we have reason to believe it’s due. We didn’t just dream up evolution, we judged from ring species and voyages and investigation, that eventually led to the theory of evolution which was later confirmed. There is no where to start with God, because nothing indicates it, the same way nothing indicates aliens did it, or fairies did it, or leprechauns. You see what i mean?
It does make sense, but that says that humanity’s level of logical thought is lower than I thought. That means… Not good things.
It just means that people are afraid bud. It’s to be expected, it was just unfortunate that the con artists were able to grapple onto that so early. Even i’m afraid of death, it scares the hell ou of me, but it doesn’t change the fact that realistically it is going to happen, and it is going to be the end.
Fear of death is universal. Some people use religion as a crutch to help with that. Some people use their crutch of religion to beat other people over the head with it. Agreed?
The answer isn’t to get rid of crutches. It’s to fight against crutch-swinging. Not all crutches are a religion…
Agreed but i’m not sure what it is your addressing.
Would I be wrong to think of these “crutches” as protests? Because most religions still believe in life after death, and what is that belief if not a means of protesting that death is anything more than a stepping stone to something more. In other words, a crutch.
“Don’t pray in my school and I won’t think in your church”
-bumper sticker
My last post here, i presented evidence for my arguments but i was todl the moderators did not accept my arguments as reasonable, i spent hours researching and wasted a vast amount of time explaining how christian theories were wrong, no i come back to find my posts are being deleted. If people want to contact and debate me it’s miles670@gmail.com
tired of posts being deleted, clearly someone doesnt want me speaking truth. miles670 @ gmail.com if u want to discuss
To Miles:
“miles670 @ gmail.com if u want to discuss”
Are you willing to discuss or do you really just want to insult?
What answer do you expect to get here? I assume you asked the question legitimately rather than just to make a point…
To Miles:
I did. Last I spoke to you, all you did was belittle me and call me stupid. Honestly, do you want to have a debate or can I expect much of the same?
Ask your questions tac.
To Miles:
I did. I have yet to receive an answer.
What did you ask?
If you really wanted to debate, or if your were just going to insult me again.
I think i’ve more than answered that question during this thread but if theirs something in particular you’d like to bring to my attention then go ahead.
“I think i’ve more than answered that question during this thread”
Indeed. Through this thread you have shown that you are not interested in debating, but simply throwing insults. I was asking if there was going to be a difference. You used the word “discuss” in your post. So I’ll ask again. Will it be a debate, or will it just be more insults from you?
“but if theirs something in particular you’d like to bring to my attention then go ahead.”
I don’t know what you mean. You said to contact you at that e-mail address if you want to discuss the issues. All I wanted to know is if I should even bother, or if it will be more petty verbal assaults in place of valid arguments.
Both of you realize that you’ve just had a long pseudo-debate about having a debate right? Am I the only one who sees the overwhelming pointlessness in this?
Tac: i’m sure he will be nice.
miles670: please be nice. (I’m not implying that you usually aren’t nice)
This discussion = epic US education fail.
Correction: This discussion = Education fail in general.
oh gee. why does that person even have their kid in school if they’re just gonna tell the teachers to not teach their kid anything?
This is kind of an anti christian picture. Geology, by carbon dating states that earth is much older than the bible states it to be. Im an atheist, so i think christians are wrong, but i respect their right to believe whatever they want to believe, because i will never be 100% sure there is no god. I personally think this should be taken down, its not fail or win, its not anything. And this is pretty bad taste and disrespect on the poster. BUT HAY ITS THE INTERNET AMIRITE?
The reason for this site’s existence is so that we can point and laugh at failures. Someone in this day and age who still insists that the world is 6000 years old and created in a week, and that Adam named all the animals FAILS. You’d have to follow one of the religions of the Book to believe that, but you’ve got the implication backwards.
You’re also wrong about carbon dating. But that’s been discussed here at length already.
Hahaha. Christians are adorable.
We should cut this schist out and get back to geology… It was less depressing than this -_-
I would recommend suicide
“It’s not that we don’t believe in things like that but we don’t believe in things like that.”
Just don’t return the permission slip. Don’t pay the $2. Don’t let your kid go on the trip. Problem solved.
If you really have to sermonise, please contact the school at…..
The field trip is to attend the “Rocks and Mineral Festival” being organised by the “Geological Society”. These parents don’t believe in rocks and minerals? Geology?
It’s at the Fossil Centre, but I’ve attended weddings in botanical gardens.
Either she eventually pulls him out of school to home teach him, or he leaves home at the age of 15 & moves in with the first girl who will screw him.
Look, I can shorten it: “My child will not be able to go on the field trip.”
Alternatively, don’t sign the permission slip. Or, have the kid stay home the day of the trip.
The fail is in the fact that it would have been MUCH easier to do one of those things instead of writing an essay on the permission slip.
I agree; it looks like that’s how it was going to start but then someone popped a blood vessel.
See this is what you get in a country founded by the religious nutjobs thrown out of Europe and Scandinavia for their extreme beliefs. Sorry but America seems to have more religious whackjobs per square cm than any other country. Where else would you find a load of gullible people who are willing to give Evangelist Preachers huge sums of money, which most of said preachers spend on themselves, funding their own “ungodly” habits.
Seriously God is just an imaginary friend for those “special” people out there to “pray to” in the hope that they won’t have to solve their own problems!
“Sorry but America seems to have more religious whackjobs per square cm than any other country.”
That’s because America is one of the most diverse countries. We have people from all over the world that live in America. You cannot lay a blanket statement over Americans any more than you can lay a blanket statement over the world.
“Seriously God is just an imaginary friend for those “special” people out there to “pray to” in the hope that they won’t have to solve their own problems!”
I have to disagree. There are many logical arguments for the existence of God, held by many highly intelligent people. Many of which are very good at solving their own problems.
Are any of the logical arguments for the existance of god valid and logicaly sound?
If so then define what you mean by god and present them. It will certainly win you some kind of recognition.
good day
sean14916
“Are any of the logical arguments for the existance of god valid and logicaly sound?”
The KCA is valid, among others. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it or not. A really quick summary goes like this.
P1: Anything that begins to exist has a cause
P2: The Universe began to exist
C: The universe has a cause.
Then we have to look at what the cause is, but I’ll stop there for now. The whole thing would take up quite a bit of space. Let me know if you care enough to hear the rest.
You assume that cause and effect chains hold water at a singularity. We already know they don’t. A perfect example is a black hole. Black holes mess with time if you get too close to them. What on earth makes you sure that you can apply cause and effect a time dependent property on the instant of the creation of the time dimension. Before the singularity doesn’t make any sense. It’s a totally meaningless concept because there was no metric to measure the distance between the two time points because one of the points doesn’t have a value for time.
Even after that problem the singularity from nothing isn’t really that popular an option. Some people still argue for the really really small singularity that we can actually measure using things like background radiation. If this is true then P2 is false.
So take your pick your argument either fails if singularity from nothing is true due to the lack of concept of time or it fails because P2 falls if you chose the really really small singularity.
I would also like to point out that this argument isn’t an argument for the existence of a god. quantum fluctuations could have done this sufficiently on their own but they are waaaaay out there in terms of complexity to understand. It also doesn’t have to be a God, it could be Spiro the dragon or a magical bowl of cornflakes.
good day
sean14916
“Before the singularity doesn’t make any sense. It’s a totally meaningless concept because there was no metric to measure the distance between the two time points because one of the points doesn’t have a value for time.”
You claim that cause and effect are time dependent? Prove that. Provide evidence for that.
“If this is true then P2 is false.”
Sorry, modern cosmology has already proven P2, if you have a problem with it, take it up with the cosmologists. In this case I will have to side with the professionals I’m afraid.
Cosmologists Bord Guth and Vilenkin have proven that the universe must have an absolute beginning out of nothing. Vilenkin states:
“It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place Cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past eternal universe. There is no escape; they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning.”
“Even after that problem the singularity from nothing isn’t really that popular an option.”
Is that so? I beg to differ.
Paul Davies (Physicist):
“The coming into being of the universe as DISCUSSED IN MODERN SCIENCE is not just a matter of imposing some sort of organization upon a previous incoherent state, but literally the coming into being of all physical things FROM NOTHING.”
He also states in Spacetime Singularities in Cosmology pg 78-79:
“If we extrapolate this prediction to its extreme, we reach a point when all distances in the universe have shrunk to zero. An initial cosmological singularity therefore forms a past temporal extremity to the universe. We cannot continue physical reasoning, or even the concept of spacetime, through such an extremity. For this reason MOST COSMOLOGISTS think of the initial singularity as the beginning of the universe. On this view the Big Bang represents the creation event; the creation not only of all the matter and energy in the universe, but also of spacetime itself.”
Fred Hoyle points out in Astronomy and Cosmology pg 658 that the Big Bang theory requires the creation of the universe from nothing. This is because, as you go back in time, you reach a point at which, in Hoyles words, the universe was “shrunk down to nothing at all”.
Steven Hawkings and Rodger Penrose state in The Nature of Space and Time pg 20:
“ALMOST EVERYONE now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the Big Bang.”
FAR from being an unpopular opinion. This is actually the most popular opinion among experts in this field. And again, I simply must go with the experts on this one.
“It also doesn’t have to be a God, it could be Spiro the dragon or a magical bowl of cornflakes.”
It doesn’t prove everything about God, this particular argument does show that there needs to be a personal, immensely powerful, eternal, immaterial, supernatural creator of the universe. Most people would call that God, but even if you don’t want to call it that, it still refutes atheism.
are you seriously questioning the temporal nature of cause and effect?
“are you seriously questioning the temporal nature of cause and effect?”
You only replied to one of my points, but yes. You make the claim that cause and effect are dependent on time. I’m just asking you to back that up.
I would have supposed it was tautological. That the word cause implies the past. I mean we assume that the effect comes after the cause don’t we? Otherwise it could be effect then cause or cause and effect at the same time.
“That the word cause implies the past. ”
It may imply the past, but I see no reason it must necessarily be so.
The cause is simply anything that brings about the effect, right? And that can be in or outside of time. For example, God is eternal, or outside of time. Yet, if for the sake or argument we say He exists, we wouldn’t say He is incapable of causing effects, would we? So the cause can be eternal, or outside of time, thus cause and effect are not dependent on time.
Every single cause we observe is temporal.
If you want to say you see no reason that a cause cannot be atemporal it’s up to you to prove that by evidence.
There are also problems with P1. But besides all that this argument is for deism so even if you were hypothetically correct in your atemporal cause it would just be an entity that we label god for convenience. I don’t see the connection between this being and the god people really believe in. The one that’s meant to talk to people.
still it’s been nice talking to you and you’ve brought up some interesting points.
good day
sean14916
“no reason that a cause cannot be atemporal it’s up to you to prove that by evidence.”
I believe I gave an example of a cause that was outside of time. I do not need to provide evidence, as it was you who claimed that cause and effect are dependent on time, not me.
“cause it would just be an entity that we label god for convenience. I don’t see the connection between this being and the god people really believe in. The one that’s meant to talk to people.”
That’s true. This argument simply by itself is not an argument for the Christian God of the bible. Rather, just an argument to show a creator, thus refuting atheism. Once it is established that there IS a creator, we move on to different arguments to try and prove which one it is.
It has been nice having this discussion with you in a calm, polite manner. You don’t know how rare that is, and I thank you.
This is addressed at Tac.
We’ve been talking for a while now and I have come to see the problem in this argument. The problem comes down to the use of the word cause. In the context of the kalam cosmological argument I believe it is being used in two distinct non equivalent meanings. These are:
1) cause – a temporal effect which relates an event at time t2 called an effect with an event at t1. Effectively giving rise to the existence of the effect.
2) cause – an atemporal cause which exists outside of time.
The effect of this argument is to establish that all things that begin to exist within the boundaries of time have time dependant causes. But then to extrapolate this onto the universe itself. As I’m sure you’re aware the concept of time is intertwined with the universe meaning that the universes cause can only be an atemporal one. This implies that the word cause in the conclusion does not mean what it means in every observable cause which we see around us. The cause in the conclusion of the kalam is c2 and the cause in the propositions are all c1.
This leaves you in the awkward position of asserting that an atemporal cause exists without any evidence to back up the claim. The argument is simply a batten switch mixed in with burden of proof shifting. You said it yourself with…
“I believe I gave an example of a cause that was outside of time. I do not need to provide evidence, as it was you who claimed that cause and effect are dependent on time, not me.”
Whilst I do claim that every cause we observe is dependant on time I am not the one establishing a proof. The burden of proof is on you to establish the existence of atemporal causes before assuming they exist.
It could very well be that an atemporal cause exists however such a claim is pointless to make in a logical proof as it doesn’t hold water.
good day
sean14916
You forgot to cross out “Miss Lead.” It’s the name of the teacher.
last!
(i only wish)
wish rejected.
WOW……. I think we need to call together a special congregation of the mind…. s of chaos for this thread….
Eye’s so sore
lololol you children are hilarious. arguing about creationism and evolution is like arguing if penguins can fly. one side (creationists) seem to think they can because their little book told them, and the other side feel the need to correct a bunch of idiots due to their own oh-so-high sense of self….you’re all idiots, yo. penguins can’t fly, and the world isn’t 6000 years old children. grow up
we don’t need to prove anything they just won’t accept that the epic fail book the bible is dead wrong on everything ;P lol
“Note: Just to let you…. it is not that we don’t believe in things like that….”
Did u missed something?
People that are arguing whether creationism or evolution is correct, or vice versa, make me hate religion.
flame war flame war!!! lol
must be nice have someone to blame everytime you get squaids (inside youtube joke) lol
Guys. this is suppose to be a JOKE!!! It is NOT meant to start flame wars! I am A Christian (If you don’t like it sucks for you) and I actually find it funny. So please, drop it!
Also people seem to think we rely on the bible for everything. Well explain to me how this is possible? It was Christmas day, my brother was hit by a car, the doctor said there was no chance of survival. He lived, and he is alive and well today.
My Mom told me a story, her and some of her friends were playing with a Ouija board. She was not touching it, and she got kind of scared, so she started thinking the song Jesus loves me. She never told anyone that she thought that song when she was scared, but the board started spelling J-E-S-U-S L-O-V-E-S M-E.
Being the skeptic that I am, I started asking people that were there. They all confirmed it. Please explain to me how those things are possible.
Joseph are you seriously saying that it would be impossible for the doctors to predict your brothers death and be wrong about it? Doctors aren’t all knowing.
As for your mothers story at first i assumed this would be the same old hearsay crap people usually come up with but to be honest your story makes perfect sense. The reason a oujia board works is because we control it using movements in our fingers, we don’t even know were doing it most of the time but when we think of words or letters our fingers spell them out for us. You can try this with a paper clip on a string. Dangle the clip over a large circle using ur thumb and finger to hold the end of the string. Try not to move but focus on the circle, the clip will begin to spin around the circle, move to smaller circles and it will do the same, move to ouija boards and…
cant decide if this is a religion fail or win, or may be such a fail it was a win, or may be the other way around…damn it paradox!
7 days for God is not necessarily 7 days for us.
Okay, I’m a Christian, but i got to admit this is an epic fail. The earth really is billions of years old, and the parents were ignorant to scripture. 2Peter 3:8 states “Remember this my dear friends, a day to the Lord is like a thousand years to us and a thousand years is like a day.” So, the parents obviously must have been under a rock for the past… i dont know SOMETHING years. They epicly fail, and i am literally facepalming at this situation. Thank you. =D
I love how everyone assumes that this fail originated in the grand old USA, lol. If only it were so, it could mean that all the insane creatures that insist that everyone knows the earth is only 6000 years old (and gets undies in a knot over allowing children to see any evidence to the contrary) would somehow be locked up inside the finite borders of this poor nation.
Alas for the rest of the world (especially Canada in this instance), we’re not the only ones with crazy fundies. The rest of the globe has my sympathies. =)
Wow!
No clue LOL!
stupidity is a mans best friend
I find this discussion Fascinating.
Personally, I think that one of the greatest feats of scientists has been to convince the major masses that an acceptance of an evolutionary viewpoint of our world, is factual science. An even greater feat has been to convince the masses that evolutionary theory is indisputable fact, as it seems so many people believe here, even though few of you have actually done exhaustive research into it.
The evidence that there are almost 3000 comments on this one picture should indicate to an open minded person that while evolutionary explanations may be generally accepted, they are far from conclusive. A single piece of evidence has often been and can often be interpreted to support both a young earth model and an old earth model. I’ve been involved in this debate for many years, and I have yet to be presented with a single piece of evidence that is conclusive to either side. This debate continues to rage on with people in all manner of educational levels. No one knows who’s right yet.
Something else that bothers me is that so many are trying to use science to say that the Bible is a myth, and others are trying to use scripture to prove that evolution is a myth. Trying to do this is not like comparing apples to apples, or even apples to oranges. It’s like comparing apples to airplanes. Science recognizes that there are certain types of things that it cannot explain (IE, is there a soul? Is there an afterlife? Why to people believe?), because to attempt to explain them isn’t scientific. So it doesn’t try to explain them. True science devotes it’s time only to quantifiable and reproducible research. Religion attempts to explain what science doesn’t try to. Religion and science deal in completely different subject areas. And because they deal in different areas, it is impossible to use one to prove or disprove the other.
Something else I find fascinating is that so many of you are so dead set against religious beliefs that you’re insulting and slandering the parents for this note. Last time I checked it is the RIGHT of any human to believe as they see fit, and be free from persecution for it. It’s even in our constitution (which says “Freedom OF religion”, not “Freedom FROM religion”). Regardless of whether or not you agree with them, they have a RIGHT to make the decision they did, and be free from insults (which is a form of persecution) for it. All you can say is “I don’t agree and here’s why.” Saying that they are ignorant and stupid is not lawful, or beneficial.
Well, I don’t believe in a god that actively interferes. But someone had to create the world and it’s inhabitants (or influence evolution or whatever, which I do believe happened over millions and billions of years).
He is a student or a boy, not a kid
Listen- This is a comment board on Failblog. Nobody is going to change the world or even anybody’s mind by saying “science/the Bible is stupid”. Go write a book about it.
I have a riddle for believer:
If God is almighty, he should be able to create a stone that is to heavy to be lifted by god. But if god can’t lift this stone, how can he be almigthy?
HOLY **** on a SANDWICH with ******* on top!!! :O we can’t beat this.
Holy **** We can’t beat this.
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